Batteries and High Ambient Temps.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

"deep cycle marine" sometimes really means "dual purpose"

None of these or other similar terms are in themselves any indicator of quality.

The entire industry is rife with fraudulent labels.

https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-deep-cycle-battery/

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Car batteries live in a hot environment and don't seem to suffer short life.

Car engines have an almost constant flow of cooling air - boat engines don't - so batteries should never ever be in engine compartments. FLAs can be topped up to replace the evaporated water but sealed can't so will die even quicker.

Battery life is cut in half for every 10 Deg C rise in temp above 25C.

[Caliber40]

How many times are you cycling ie taking down to 50% then recharging. Most batteries lifespan is measured in charging cycles. If you cycle once daily like many of us that’s over 1400 in 4 years.

Maybe your 4 year lifespan is “ normal”

[lvictorlucas]

A couple of considerations:
1) AGM's are very sensitive to overcharging, much more than most other types.
2) Make sure you are temperature compensating correctly as every manufacturer is different.
3) Verify the charger temperature sensors are wired to every battery, correctly placed on the case and operating correctly.
4) Corrosion on the temperature sensor wires or connections will over charge the batteries.
5) Do not even consider an inexpensive Chinese charger.
6) Manually confirm the voltage as the batteries heat up and for the various charge stages.
7) The most common problem is for the charger to stay in a trickle charge maintenance mode when the battery capacity is more than the charger is designed for as the voltage take too long to reach the cutoff voltage.
8) The second most common problem is for the charger to cycle every time a draw a heavy load for a short period of time is applied as this will quickly overcharge the batteries.

[amaka101]

I spent most of my time at Latitude 10° S & found that Batteries, usually the more expensive ones did not last more than 2 years. European made rubber products are the same.
I had Trojan 130 A on three occasions but then gave up on them. One year to 18 months is all I got out of them Found the cheaper brands to last at least twice as long. I had Australian made BESCO deep cycle 90 A & they worked for 5 years until they got stolen.
I don't think environmental temperature has much to do with it because most batteries are below deck where there is pretty much constant temperature unless of course they're part of the engine bay. I keep mine away from the engine. I think it's more on the maintenance & usage side. Bad contacts make for bad charging/discharge.

[john61ct]

Then there are the thousands of owners get well over ten years without SoH declining over 20-25%.

Well, true, not many AGMs get there cycled daily 8-)

but accepting anything under 3-4 years as natural, sorry you're doing it wrong, maybe you just weren't willing to invest your market's price for quality true deep cycling batteries.

[ayates]

Do you log the battery temperature? This would be a good method of seeing if this an issue being encountered, and if so how bad. While I am definitely not in the tropics, the attached graphs shows what happens with our batteries. From an analysis at the time, the battery temperature appeared more tied to the ambiant temperature rather than any charging induced temperature rise.


Allan.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Car batteries live in a hot environment and don't seem to suffer short life.

Car batteries are always charged. They never deep discharge. This is not a valid choice for a sail boat. They could be OK for a power boat in day-use.

We are a 24 volt boat. Our first banks installed on the Great Lakes were Lifeline AGM. We sailed with them to the Caribbean four years ago. Bank one got weak a year ago and was replaced with Firefly AGM carbon foam, 6 X 4 volt @ 450 AH. One original Lifeline bank is still functioning well, now 11 years old. The Firefly bank in its first year was awesome.

Do you have a battery temperature probe as part of the charging system? If not, you may be over charging.

Do you routinely discharge below 60%? The deeper you discharge the fewer total cycles you will receive.

Do you have externally regulated alternators? If not, you are most likely overcharging.

Does your solar charging have a regulated multi-stage charge controller with battery temperature probe?

Our charging:
660 watts, 54 volts open circuit. MPPT solar charge controller.
Main engine 35 amp alternator with Balmar external 624 regulator.
Generator with in line spare alternator and 624 regulator
Generator to Blue Sea 3 kw charger-inverter.
Bogart battery monitor on each bank.
All charging devices have temperature probes on the batteries. All charging devices are multi-stage to optimize the charging cycle and to prevent over charge.

I too would be really disappointed at four years total service.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

We have Mastervolt gel batteries.

The 2v Hoppecke batteries were part of the discussions, but supply, delivery and cost problems etc made these not viable.

I don’t expect the Mastervolt gel batteries to be as good, but our battery bank is large (600Ahrs@24v) so I think the life will be good, although not anywhere close to the numbers I indicated in my first post.

When replacement is needed, the correct charging and management practices for lithium will be clearer, as will their lifespan in the real world. With a boat relying predominantly on generator power I think Lithium is a no brainier, but for a boat such as mine producing virtually all power from solar, gel batteries have a lot of appeal.

Thanks to all for your input, I have been researching my options so as to replace the 8D Trojans before we leave in October

Also From Nolex
My suspicion is that gel batteries are not any better, and are perhaps even worse in the percentage of lifespan that is retained at higher temperatures.
The difference is the maximum lifespan for the gel batteries is much longer.
So an owner that installs a typical flooded deep cycle lead acid battery that may achieve 6-7 years under optimal conditions finds the shorter 3-4 year lifespan achieved at high battery temperatures is frustrating. 2v gel batteries that may have a 20 year life under optimal conditions still deliver a usable 10-12 year life at high battery temperatures. The percentage loss in both cases is the same, but the gel battery option avoids the problem of trying to replace batteries as frequently.

From Ranger42c
Apparently "deep cycle marine" sometimes really means "dual purpose". You might check with MaineSail about the Trojan 8Ds.

My Questions and Comments

I did read MainSail's article on "Deep Cycle" marketing and his disdain for 8D and 4D battery design which is a problem for me as I’m presently using under seat lockers with minimal height to take my 8 x 8D, thus my concern that heat is prematurely killing them on high charge cycles.

Nolex,
Are your Mastervolt gel batteries 2v or 6v?

Since I do have a generator and can put in +140 amps if needed, my concern is the temptation to overcharge the Gel Batteries if i go that route?

[I]Thinking out loud..With my 24v House system: Pros and Cons of Battery Voltage
[I]

• A 2v Battery format would require 12 batteries and one bad battery would kill the system
• 6v would need 8
• 12v would need only 6 or 8 depending on AH Capacity

If I’m nervous about overcharging Gel, staying with AGM seems my only choice as open FLA under the Galley area and on a heeling sailboat can be a smelly and messy affair and not good for the batteries

I do have an alternate location in a deep well just forward of the Holding Tank and only 2m fwd of existing location, but much lower on center and line directly above the keel

Foot print space is L760mm x W400mm x H820mm with plenty of venting space on either side. (see photo)

So I have a place with height, but limited to a footprint of 40 x 76cm to build a box

I did find a Group size J185 / 921 that takes advantage of the height in 2 Rows of 4

Both Trojan and Fullriver make them,probably others, but are they considered Deep Cycle?

This is the Fullriver spec sheet which I used in my preliminary sketch allowing for ventilation
http://resources.fullriverbattery.co...s/DC215-12.pdf

Opinions? Thanks!

[sailorboy1]

Why can't you install ventilation fans for your battery storage? I use 7 blade fans that are quiet and hardy use any power. I have them for the battery charger, the refrigeration compressor and to blow air under our master berth.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Why can't you install ventilation fans for your battery storage? I use 7 blade fans that are quiet and hardy use any power. I have them for the battery charger, the refrigeration compressor and to blow air under our master berth.

I will now!

[a64pilot]

Car batteries are always charged, what has that got to do with lifespan in high temps?
Trojan is an excellent wet cell battery, the AGM’s not so much.
While I don’t log my battery temps charging my Lifelines only raise the temp a couple of degrees F max. Temp is driven by ambient conditions.

Fans are only going to help if the battery compartment is significantly hotter than ambient air temp, and I bet it’s not, mine isn’t and it’s pretty well sealed.
If the batteries are 90f and the outside air temp is close to 90, your not going to cool anything.
Batteries don’t air cool well at all, they are a massive lump in a plastic case, and often in contact with each other
See how much temp delta there is at night, maybe running a fan overnight when outside temps are lower could help.
My batteries track pretty close to water temp being that they are real close to the hull. And we use a lot of power so I’m charging pretty hard, often well over 100 amps into a 660 AH bank.

I believe your short life is either due to PSOC or the fact that Trojan’s reputation for AGM’s is no where near as good as their flooded batteries.

Right now for example I’m sitting in a Marina. Batteries been in float for a month or so, AC running 24/7, boat interior temps about mid 70’s.
Battery bank temp is 84F, which I bet is about what the temp of the St. John’s River is, maybe river temp is a little higher.

When we are out cruising, battery temp is right about mid 80’s as well as that’s the water temp, interior boat temp will hit 90 or so depending on how hot the day is, night time 70’s of course.

I think we would both be much better off with quality Gel banks.

[Exile]

I thought the suggestion about the use of small (computer-type?) fans for ventilation was more about removing fumes than heat. I have similar concerns to Pelagic when it comes to using FLAs since all of my batteries reside under the berth in the main cabin where I usually sleep.

I do run the type of small, efficient fan it sounds like SailorBoy is talking about for electronics, but that's strictly for cooling.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by lvictorlucas

A couple of considerations:
1) AGM's are very sensitive to overcharging, much more than most other types.
2) Make sure you are temperature compensating correctly as every manufacturer is different.
3) Verify the charger temperature sensors are wired to every battery, correctly placed on the case and operating correctly.
4) Corrosion on the temperature sensor wires or connections will over charge the batteries.
5) Do not even consider an inexpensive Chinese charger.
6) Manually confirm the voltage as the batteries heat up and for the various charge stages.
7) The most common problem is for the charger to stay in a trickle charge maintenance mode when the battery capacity is more than the charger is designed for as the voltage take too long to reach the cutoff voltage.
8) The second most common problem is for the charger to cycle every time a draw a heavy load for a short period of time is applied as this will quickly overcharge the batteries.

Thanks Victor, all makes sense I do have a Victron Temp Sensor that came with the Multiplus 3000, but is is only connected to "One" Terminal not to all 8 batteries.... Is that wrong??

If so, that could be my problem as it is sensing the last battery in the chain which happens to have the most cooling.

Got a quote from Fullriver today for the AGM DC 215-12 at US$284 each,

These are the Taller for a new, cooler location, which I will install in a steel rack, 2 high and 4 across

A64, could not find a Gel Battery in that size that would fit the new location

Hopefully, third time lucky!

Added some useful files on charging from Fullriver

[john61ct]

What is the deciding factor in your decosion to go with Full River, rather than Lifeline, Northstar or Odyssey?