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colemj · 31-12-2015, 11:59

Ah, so it isn't the marks themselves, it's the entire piece that contains them. And it is only a precision issue, not a fundamental one.

Mark

Maine Sail · 31-12-2015, 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by colemj

Ah, so it isn't the marks themselves, it's the entire piece that contains them. And it is only a precision issue, not a fundamental one.

Mark

Once the kit is done, as I helped E-Maax do, there are no more issues. For Mark Grasser to develop one of his kits, with the much larger crank pulley, he would probably want an MD2030 within a 30 minute drive to be sure everything worked and to take measurements himself. I have done a number of Mark's kits and they work really well and create a faster turning alt which results in better cooling and better low RPM performance.

The Balmar kits were E-Maax but CDI/Balmar has severed ties with E-Maax, so I am unsure whether they still have any for the MD2030. As I eluded to earlier the only kit I know of, for the MD2030, is the E-Maax kit...

CAPTAINRONBVI · 31-12-2015, 13:44

KLAUS

YOU STATED THAT YOUR LITHIUM BATTERY BANK IS ONLY 400aH. ANY ALTERNATOR PUTTING OUT MORE THAN 160 AMPS WILL ULTIMATELY DAMAGE THEM AS THEY LIKE TO BE CHARGED AT LOWER AMPERAGE THAN YOU WOULD SPEC OUT FOR ANY FORM OF LEAD ACID. LITHIUM DOES NOT NEED "DEEP" CHARGING.

I HAVE 7 x 120 aH (840 aH) LiFePO4 AS MY SERVICE BANK. I PURCHASED A 200 AMP ALTERNATOR FROM POWERMAX IN THE US THAT WAS MADE TO RETRO-FIT (DIRECT REPLACEMENT) FOR THE HITACHI ALTERNATOR ON MY YANMAR 4JH3-HTE ENGINE. IT IS SINGLE PULLEY AND PRODUCES FULL OUTPUT AT 1500 RPM.

SO IN ORDER NOT TO COOK THE ALTERNATOR OR THE BATTERIES, I HAD A SLIGHTLY LARGER SINGLE BELT PULLEY INSTALLED TO REPLACE THE ORIGINAL PULLEY IN ORDER TO REDUCE THE TOTAL AMPERAGE OUTPUT. I ESTIMATE I AM PUTTING OUT 180 AMPS. IT IS STILL A BIT MUCH FOR THE SERVICE BANK, BUT I WANTED A BIT EXTRA OUTPUT FOR WHEN THE BOW THRUSTER IS IN USE AS IT DRAWS 500 AMPS.

I RECENTLY MOTORED FROM PESCARA, ITALY TO BAR, MONTENEGRO RUNNING MY ENGINE FOR 2500 RPM FOR 27 HOURS. UNFORTUNATELY, THERE WAS VERY LITTLE WIND TO SAIL.

BOTH THE BATTERIES AND THE ALTERNATOR WERE ONLY WARM TO THE TOUCH. THE ALTERNATOR PUTS OUT 14.8 VOLTS. A LITTLE TOO HIGH FOR THE LFP. THEY SHOULD ONLY GET ABOUT 14.2 TO A MAX OF 14.6. LOWER VOLTAGE IS BETTER. THEY CHARGE NICELY TO 13.8 VOLTS.

MANY TIMES I WILL TURN THE CHARGING OFF FOR THE BATTERIES FOR ANYWHERE FROM 2 - 4 DAYS.

I HAVE ON THREE SEPARATE OCCASIONS DEPLETED THE BATTERY BANK DOWN TO 9.5 VOLTS. WITH AN 60 AMP SHORE POWERED BATTERY CHARGER, THE ENTIRE SERVICE BANK REACHED FULL CHARGE IN 4.5 HRS. UNDER NORMAL USE SUPPLEMENTED WITH SOLAR CHARGING (600 WATTS), THE BATTERIES SHOULD REMAIN NEAR PEAK CHARGE ON A DAILY BASIS.

THE SOLAR PANELS WILL BE INSTALLED IN ANOTHER MONTH AND A HALF.

THERE IS AN EXTERNAL BMS UNIT FOR THE SERVICE BANK. THE ALTERNATOR COSTS $200.

IN MY OPINION, YOU ARE SPENDING TOO MUCH MONEY FOR ALTERNATORS AND CONTROLLERS. BALMAR IS WAY TO EXPENSIVE AND TOO MUCH WORK TO ADAPT AND INSTALL.

IT IS MY DESIRE AND INTENTION TO KEEP THE SYSTEM AS SIMPLE AND MAINTENANCE FREE AS POSSIBLE.

I HAVE ONE OTHER OPINION TO EXPRESS. GET RID OF ALL THOSE GENERATORS. THE TOTAL EXPENSES ASSOCIATED WITH THE ACQUISITION COST OF THE GENSET, THE INSTALLATION, MAINTENANCE, ADDITIONAL PROBLEMS OF INADEQUATE PERFORMANCE, NO OUTPUT, ETC. OR ABILITY TO TROUBLE SHOOT PROBLEMS ARE ENORMOUS. AND OF COURSE TRYING TO GET SKILLED TECHNICAL HELP AND PARTS IN FAR OFF LOCATIONS.

THEN THERE IS THE ADDITIONAL WEIGHT NOISE, FUEL CONSUMPTION, NEED FOR EXTRA FUEL OR MORE RAPID DEPLETION OF FUEL TAKEN FROM THAT WHICH COULD BE USED FOR THE AUXILIARY DRIVE ENGINE.

I WOULD RECOMMEND A LARGER SERVICE BANK OF LiFePO4 BATTERIES. TO REPLACE GENSETS. IF THERE IS NOT ENOUGH SOLAR CHARGING AVAILABLE, SHORT RUNS OF THE ENGINE ARE ALL THAT ARE NECESSARY TO CHARGE THEM UP.

FOR THOSE THAT WANT TO RUN AIR CONDITIONING OR ELECTRIC HEAT, JUST SIZE THE LiFePO4 ACCORDINGLY AND GET AN APPROPRIATE INVERTER.

ONCE MY AC/HEAT (2 UNITS -- 16K BTU/2KW HEAT + 9K BTU/1.7KW HEAT) ARRIVES AND IS INSTALLED ALONG WITH THE SOLAR PANELS, I WILL START A THREAD TO OUTLINE THE PERFORMANCE OF THE SYSTEM I HAVE DESIGNED FOR MY 2004 BENETEAU 50.

GOOD LUCK ALL AND HAVE A WONDERFUL NEW YEAR

CAPTAIN RON

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colemj · 31-12-2015, 13:56

Speak up, we can't hear you!

Almost everything you wrote about LiFePO batteries and their care is opposite of that which I think I know.

But I only have a bit of book learning about them and no real experience. Good luck with yours at 14.8V. At least you are getting to that slowly!

Mark

offpist · 31-12-2015, 14:22

I dont see any problems charging 450AH Lifepo4 with an 165A alternator at all.

Running the battery all the way to 9,5V and 14,8V on the other hand...

CAPTAINRONBVI · 31-12-2015, 14:52

MARK

IS THIS LOUD ENOUGH FOR YOU? I DO THIS SO I CAN SEE WITH OUT STRAINING MY EYES AND BECAUSE I AM A LOUSY TYPIST. BUT TO TALK ABOUT ALL CAPS BEING SHOUTING IS WHAT I WOULD EXPECT FROM CHILDREN (THE ONES WHO "ESTABLISHED THE ABSURDITY OF INTERNET ETIQUETTE) NOT ADULTS.

THAT BEING SAID, MARK YOU ARE CORRECT IN LiFePO4 REQUIRING LOWER VOLTAGE. AND I APOLOGIZE FOR NOT BEING CLEAR ENOUGH IN MY FIRST POST.

THE ALTERNATOR PUTS OUT 14.8 (WHICH I WILL EVENTUALLY REDUCE). BUT IT ONLY REACHES THAT VOLTAGE AS THE SEALED LEAD ACID STARTER BATTERY ACCEPTS ITS CHARGE.

THE BMU IS SET TO TURN OF CHARGE TO THE LFP AT 14.6 VOLTS. HOWEVER, IN ACTUALITY, BY THE TIME THE CHARGING VOLTAGE FROM THE ALTERNATOR ACTUALLY REACHES THE BATTERIES, IT IS ONLY 14.45 VOLTS SO I AM NOT IN SUCH A RUSH TO REGULATE THE VOLTAGE DOWN. BESIDES, WHILE RUNNING THE ENGINE, I AM ALSO RUNNING THE AUTOPILOT, INSTRUMENTS, VHF, 12 VOLT FRIDGE & FREEZER AND A FEW OTHER ITEMS, SO THESE ELECTRONICS HELP TO KEEP ABSORB SOME OF THE CHARGING VOLTAGE.

I HAVE 2 MORE LFP COMING SOON - ONE TO REPLACE SLA START BATTERY AND ONE MORE TO ADD TO THE SERVICE BANK. I ALSO HAVE SOME LED BATTERY MONITOR METERS COMING (VOLTAGE, AMPS, AMP HOURS AND OTHER ASSORTED INFO) IN ORDER TO ASCERTAIN WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING SO I CAN REPORT BACK TO MY BATTERY AND SOLAR PANEL SUPPLIERS WITH WHOM I AM CONSULTING. AT THAT POINT I WILL FINE TUNE THE CHARGING VOLTAGE AND AMPERAGE.

ALL IN ALL, I BELIEVE THE BEST MOVE I EVER MADE WAS SWITCHING TO LITHIUM BATTERIES.

ALTHOUGH SOMEONE MENTIONED THAT THEY HAVE READ ABOUT CHEMICAL FIRES, I HAVE SEEN VIDEOS OF LITHIUM BATTERIES BEING THROWN INTO A FIRE, SHOT WITH A GLOCK 45, HIT WITH A DEAD SHORT AND A FEW OTHER THINGS. I WITNESSED NO DANGEROUS RESPONSES.

WHAT I DID WITNESS WAS THE DAMAGE MY FRIEND SUFFERED ON HIS LAGOON 40 IN THE CARIBBEAN. HIS BALMAR ARS-5 SHORTED OUT IN THE STARBOARD ENGINE COMPARTMENT, IGNITED THE WIRES ON FIRE THAT TRAVELED ALONG THE CABLES TO HIS TROJAN BATTERIES IGNITING THOSE ON FIRE AND SETTING HIS ENGINE ON FIRE. THE FIRE TRAVELED FURTHER ALONG THE BATTERY CABLES TO THE PORT BATTERY BANK SETTING THOSE BATTERIES ON FIRE.

HE EXTINGUISHED ALL FIRES SO THE MAJOR DAMAGE WAS TO HIS STARBOARD ENGINE COMPARTMENT, HULL INTERIOR, SMOKE DAMAGE TO LIVING QUARTERS. THE PORT SIDE BATTERIES AND THEIR WIRING WERE DESTROYED, BUT THE ENGINE WAS UNTOUCHED. TOTAL DAMAGE WAS IN EXCESS OF $50,000 usd OF WHICH HIS INSURANCE COMPANY DEPRECIATED DOWN TO A PAYOUT OF ONLY $25,000 usd. MY FRIEND PAID THE OTHER $25,000 FROM HIS RETIREMENT ACCOUNT.

THAT EVENT CONVINCED ME THAT I WILL NEVER ALLOW LEAD ACID BATTERIES OF ANY TYPE ON BOARD MY VESSEL - ESPECIALLY FLOODED LEAD ACID. SULFURIC ACID USED IN THESE BATTERIES IS HIGHLY EXPLOSIVE. I CAN ONLY IMAGINE HOW MUCH WORSE MY FRIEND WOULD HAVE BEEN IF HE HAD NOT BEEN ON BOARD WHEN IT HAPPENED.

GETTING OFF TRACK HERE. SORRY, THE OP ASKED ABOUT FITTING A BALMAR 200 AMP ALTERNATOR ON HIS MD2030 TO CHARGE 400 aH OF LITHIUM BATTERY. I THINK IT IS OVER KILL AND SHOULD BE SCALED DOWN TO NO MORE THAN 120 - 140 AMPS NET (A 160 AMP SINGLE BELT ALTERNATOR WITH A LARGER PULLEY WILL PUT LESS STRAIN ON THE ENGINE, THE ALTERNATOR BELT, STOCK BRACKET AND THE ALTERNATOR.

CIAO ALL

CAPTAIN RON

Maine Sail · 31-12-2015, 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by offpist

Running the battery all the way to 9,5V and 14,8V on the other hand...

As Homer Simpson says.... D'oh........

CAPTAINRONBVI · 31-12-2015, 15:09

OFFPIST

I ONLY RAN THE LITHIUM DOWN TO 9.5 VOLTS TO TEST HOW MUCH TIME IT TAKES FOR LITHIUM BATTERIES TO REACH FULL CHARGE FROM A STATE OF FULL DISCHARGE.

THIS WAS DONE IN ORDER TO DETERMINE WHAT SIZE SOLAR ARRAY IS NECESSARY AND VIABLE TO KEEP A REASONABLE CHARGE IF NOT FULL CHARGE ON AN 840 aH LITHIUM BATTERY BANK.

SINCE THAT TIME I HAVE NOT FULLY DISCHARGED NOR DO I INTEND TO FULLY DISCHARGE THE BANK. BUT IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF THIS INFORMATION WHEN GOING OFFSHORE SHOULD SOMETHING INADVERTENTLY CAUSE THE SERVICE BANK TO FULLY DISCHARGE.

ALSO PART OF MY TESTING WAS TO SEE HOW LONG I COULD RUN MY 400 WATT 230 VOLT AIMS INVERTER OFF THE SERVICE BANK DRAWING 20 - 35 AMPS/HOUR (2 ELECTRIC HEATERS) WITH ALL CHARGING SOURCES TURNED OFF. I WAS ABLE TO GET ABOUT 30 HOURS OF NON-STOP PERFORMANCE BEFORE THE LITHIUM WERE FULLY DISCHARGED.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT LITHIUM BATTERIES ARE TOUTED TO BE CAPABLE OF FULL DISCHARGE AND SUBSEQUENT FULL RECHARGE TO 100% WITHOUT DAMAGE. THE ONLY THING I BELIEVE TO BE AFFECTED BY COMPLETE DISCHARGE IS THE ULTIMATE NUMBER OF CHARGE CYCLES EST TO BE CLOSE TO 2500 IF DISCHARGED TO 60 OR 80 % REGULARLY. IN MOST CASES THAT IS ABOUT 10 YEARS.

PERHAPS THIS INFORMATION WILL HELP THE OP ACQUIRE THE PROPER CHARGING SYSTEM. I HOPE SO.

REGARDS ALL

CAPTAIN RON

darylat8750 · 31-12-2015, 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

As Homer Simpson says.... D'oh........

I saw the movie. Captain Ron says it all....

Maine Sail · 31-12-2015, 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by darylat8750

I saw the movie. Captain Ron says it all....

These are the things I talked about many, many moons ago in the Lithium thread that I said would give LFP a bad name & ultimately a black eye.......

We are now seeing the installations & poor practices I suggested would eventually happen.........

colemj · 31-12-2015, 20:16

It's not all bad, he has an actual hockey stick in his battery box. Perhaps to remind him about that charging curve?

Mark

DotDun · 01-01-2016, 09:52

Is there any restrictions/specs for the MD2030 as to side loading the crankshaft main bearings? I know Yanmar issues max angle/load on some engines. 150A alternator could pull >3hp.

klaus53123 · 06-01-2016, 07:44

Hey Folks,
many thanks so far for your comments.

Can you do me a favour and leave the LFP discussion aside. There is an extensive threat on cruisers forum about LFP usage in house batteries and we do not need to start a side discussion.

I would however be very grateful to receive some input which alternator and which setup to best use.

Right now I charge with my standard alternator at about 50Amps. I have a Sterling Duo Dig fitted to the alternator. The problem is, the alternator runs hot. At 90°C it is switched off by the sterling and cools down to 80°C and is then switched on again. For me there are two issues: how long will the alternator survive running at max capacity and how can I avoid loosing charging time due to the cool down shut down?

Coming back to the Balmar AT: I understand Emaxx provides pullies. I will contact them and will feed back.

Any other good ideas?

thanks and regards from the carribean

Klaus

Maine Sail · 06-01-2016, 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by klaus53123

Right now I charge with my standard alternator at about 50Amps. I have a Sterling Duo Dig fitted to the alternator. The problem is, the alternator runs hot. At 90°C it is switched off by the sterling and cools down to 80°C and is then switched on again. For me there are two issues: how long will the alternator survive running at max capacity and how can I avoid loosing charging time due to the cool down shut down?

You will have the same issue with that regulator with almost any alt you use with LFP batteries. The Sterling deals with alt temp compensation in a very poor fashion. While the AT series tend to run a bit cooler than a 6 series alt they still can over heat if pushed in bulk for too long in a hot engine bay. I would not use a Sterling reg on LFP...

The Balmar MC -614 now uses an adaptive temp compensation feature which drops in 10% increments and goes back up when it finds the right spot. The old method was bouncing between a 50% cut and 100%. Some of the Sterling regs shut off completely then go back to 100%.

I still prefer to first de-rate the alt using Balmar's excellent Belt Manager function then use temp comp as the last insurance policy. Proper set up of any alternator is critical and can take as much as few hours running the alt full fielded to get it just right.