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Old 01-01-2021, 06:02   #61
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Re: Balmar 614 vs Li battery BMS cutout

I think I have posted this many times but here is my DC schematic. The highlights:

- a 12V AGM bank with two parallel batteries used for starting and running some 12V loads like electric winches.

- a 24V LFP house bank with two parallel batteries.

- solar, genset and shore power charge LFP bank

- alternators charge AGM bank

- when AGM bank is charged, two DC-DC converters detect spinning alternator and charge LFP bank

- as long as LFP isn’t empty, one DC-DC converter charges the AGM bank. This one is always in float

- one DC-DC converter creates a stable 13.8V power supply for electronics, shielding them from spikes, surges etc. that result from starting engines, using windlass, electric winch etc.

These Smart DC-DC converters can be programmed as either a power supply or a battery charger and have smart algorithms to detect alternators, low input voltage etc.
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Old 01-01-2021, 07:39   #62
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Re: Balmar 614 vs Li battery BMS cutout

Thanks Jedi. That's a clever use of DC-DC converters to charge 24vdc LFP.

Your Deerfoot has a huge system compared to us. I had considered using a DC-DC converter to simplify our system, but got concerned about efficiency and heat, and I don't have room for 2 Orion 30a and I'd like to charge faster. What is your experience with regard to efficiency and heat? Aren't DC-DC converters also good at suppressing transients and spikes, being smart transformers?

I understand that Orion Smart 12DC-12DC converters can also boost the voltage up if needed.
  1. Alternator 100a (continuous hot rating) (70a for LFP +10a for Refrigeration + 10a for AGM) could be programmed for and connected to AGM/FLA, (requires no external regulation or temp sensors).
  2. DC-DC converter could be programmed for and connected to charge the LFP 12v 200a, also protecting the LFP from overcharge.
  3. When the alternator is not charging, the DC-DC converter will not allow the LFP to leak charge back to the AGM/FLA (which has dropped to 12.8v when full)?
  4. DC Load can be manually switched to LFP or AGM.
  5. Eventually (2) MPPT (2) Solar 100w to LFP.
  6. Old Solar 20w with PWM controller to AGM.
  7. Wouldn't any good drop in LFP+BMS work with this arrangement?
  8. I expect that a Victron LFP/BMS with better external controls would be better engineering, in this case, the DC-CD converter could be dropped, provided you have an alternator regulator that will properly charge LFP?
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Old 01-01-2021, 08:43   #63
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Re: Balmar 614 vs Li battery BMS cutout

Chris from Balmar here. Disconnecting the Ignition wire leading to the MC-614 is the correct and safe way to stop alternator charging in a controlled manner. As an example, the FCC control circuit included in some of the Lithionics batteries are designed to do exactly this - power the ignition wire when their BMS is allowing charge, and remove power from the wire when it is not allowed.

Chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by Britishsea View Post
Sorry to revive an old thread... but I have a related question regarding load dump when interrupting a Balmar (614) regulated alternator.

What's the consensus on the voltage surge from bringing low the ignition wire on a Balmar? Is it a controlled reduction in the field current and so no significant load dump? Is this a safe way end charging by the alternator when it's in bulk?

The reason I asking is I am considering a design which would allow a BMS to control the Balmar end of charge cycle through the ignition control wire.

I know this is not a typical approach, and normally the BMS only provides cell level protection in the event of significant voltage cell drift, or an over temp condition. But there is some BMS functionality I would like to take advantage of which requires the BMS controls the charging. For system redundancy, I would set the Balmar charge profile to a safe level just above the cut off voltage of the BMS. A start battery would also be in the system isolated by a Victron Argofet.
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Old 02-01-2021, 00:41   #64
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Re: Balmar 614 vs Li battery BMS cutout

[QUOTE=s/v Jedi;3310904]
Quote:
In order for a transient spike to happen, all batteries must disconnect. When the AGM stays connected while the LFP disconnects, there is no spike to damage alternator nor ArgoFET.
Ok, great - that is good news and what I had hoped. Thank you! Please note, in the design I am proposing, the day-to-day end-of-charge signal will go to the Balmar 614 ignition wire, so the LFP will also be in parallel to the alternator.

Quote:
Also, if you turn off the regulator, regardless of how, it will cut the field current to the alternator, which makes it drop the output without any spikes. The discussion on how to stop the regulator is that Balmar has a description in their manual but others (incl. Rod Collins iirc) recommend to take power off the whole regulator as a safety measure, in case the regulator itself has failed. It is important to understand the difference between the two: the Balmar method is to be used when you want to stop charging in a controlled manner, i.e. when the battery monitor signals a full battery or when the BMS activates a warning. Taking the power off the regulator as some advocate is to be done as a last resort safety, i.e. instead of interrupting the charge current that would lead to a transient surge.
Here (attached below) is the quote Rod Collins uses in his Lifepo4 article - which is an excerpt from a Balmar manual. It affirms exactly as you say above.


Quote:
When charge sources are all correctly configured for lfp, the only time the BMS should sound an alarm of even disconnect the battery during alternator charging, is when the cells have ran out of balance and one cell is too high in voltage or when the temperature is too low to charge.
Yes, this is really the design point I am trying to explore. As you describe above is the conventional way to charge LFP from a Balmar. The twist to my proposed design is to have the BMS as the primary source of charge control of the Balmar via the brown ignition wire. Not sure if this is just a truly terrible idea - but in my head it seems like it would work fine. The alternative is DC-DC chargers where the BMS controls their cut off.

The reason I would want to do this is I have a BMS which the SOC function will not work without it controlling the end of charge. Also, it has an interesting feature in which it only allows the bank to charge to 100% once a day, and there after only resumes charging when the SOC goes below 70% and then to charge to no more than 80% (these SOC set points are user configurable). Seems like a good idea and I would like to take advantage of this feature.

Quote:
Conclusion: when you use the relay in a battery monitor to stop charging (preferred option when charger did not switch to float yet) then use the regular method as described in the Balmar manual. When you use the alarm from a BMS then this is a rare event so use the “take power of whole regulator “ method to make sure it stops.
The BMS also has a secondary high-voltage-cut off and I will use the dedicated relay on this higher setting to cut the power line (red wire) to the Balmar. Very good point and thank you for the suggestion!
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Old 02-01-2021, 00:47   #65
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Re: Balmar 614 vs Li battery BMS cutout

Thank you Chris for your confirmation!

Very reassuring that the Lithionics Lifepo4 batteries use their internal BMS to interphase with the Balmar 614 in just this way (via the ignition wire). I'll have to have a look at the Lithonics documentation for the details.

& great to see Balmar participating on the forum!
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Old 02-01-2021, 04:16   #66
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Re: Balmar 614 vs Li battery BMS cutout

British sea re your triple spike protect idea.
1. Agm & argofet
2. Victron alarm control and small relay to shut of brown ignition wire.
3. Victron charge control to disconnect the red wire
This is using Victron BMS controls but I think the manual says #3 is too low power for relays and I believe it won't work unless the alt regulator senses high low in the control wire and has its own relay to disconnect the red wire. Using this control wired the wrong way will damage the bms.

What was the other BMS you were considering that schedules alt soc?
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Old 02-01-2021, 06:16   #67
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Re: Balmar 614 vs Li battery BMS cutout

Anyone exploring these options should have a long look at the Victron BMV 712 Smart. At $200 it offers a ton of functions incl. a programmable relay that can be used to stop charging with any/all charging sources at a specific SOC % and resume at a specific SOC %

You wire this using a relay at every charging source, like one that can interrupt field current of the alternator (like ignition wire Balmar regulator) or the remote switch input of a solar controller. Make sure all these relays use the same coil voltage as your house battery and wire all coils in parallel. Connect that to one master relay so that it can stop and start all charging. To the coil of this relay, attach a manual on/off switch in series with the BMV relay contacts and the fused house battery source used for all relay power. The manual switch has become a master and when switched on, allows the BMV to control charging.
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Old 02-01-2021, 13:27   #68
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Re: Balmar 614 vs Li battery BMS cutout

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Anyone exploring these options should have a long look at the Victron BMV 712 Smart. At $200 it offers a ton of functions incl. a programmable relay that can be used to stop charging with any/all charging sources at a specific SOC % and resume at a specific SOC %

You wire this using a relay at every charging source, like one that can interrupt field current of the alternator (like ignition wire Balmar regulator) or the remote switch input of a solar controller. Make sure all these relays use the same coil voltage as your house battery and wire all coils in parallel. Connect that to one master relay so that it can stop and start all charging. To the coil of this relay, attach a manual on/off switch in series with the BMV relay contacts and the fused house battery source used for all relay power. The manual switch has become a master and when switched on, allows the BMV to control charging.

Thank you Jedi, I was headed in that direction, and that sounds like a good idea.
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Old 04-01-2021, 09:31   #69
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Re: Balmar 614 vs Li battery BMS cutout

Quote:
Originally Posted by witzgall View Post
Chris from Balmar here. Disconnecting the Ignition wire leading to the MC-614 is the correct and safe way to stop alternator charging in a controlled manner. As an example, the FCC control circuit included in some of the Lithionics batteries are designed to do exactly this - power the ignition wire when their BMS is allowing charge, and remove power from the wire when it is not allowed.

Chris
Chris,

This is because Dimitri has programmed the correct delays for shutting down via the brown wire into the Lithionics batteries. He learned why to do this well before he sold Clean Power Auto to Lithionics.

There are other BMS's that don't shut down the alternator slightly before the main contactor opens. In this scenario the MC-614 red/power wire is the best option in conjunction with another form of transient protection.

I had long talks with Michael, when he was still alive, about this very topic. If you wish to use the brown wire then the BMS needs to be able to shut down the alternator slightly ahead of the main BMS switch opening.

MC-614 B+/Red Power Wire = Instantaneous Shut Down

MC-614 Ignition/Brown Wire = Save Data Then Shut Down (not instantaneous)

MC-614 Field/Blue Wire = Never Use for BMS Shut Down




All of the above is directly from detailed notes from discussions I had with Michael Frost..
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Old 09-08-2021, 16:27   #70
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Re: Balmar 614 vs Li battery BMS cutout

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S/V Jedi & rgleason,

thanks for your detailed replies. I have some further reading to do in the New Year!

I understand that the split charge Argofet will allow an alternator a load dump a path to my start battery. Also, keep in the mind the lifepo4 battery will still be in-line with the alternator, as the charging is proposed to be ended by taking the Balamar ignition wire low, not breaking the connection to the LFP battery.

However, I know that Fet (mosfet?) based equipment like the Argofet do not like voltage spikes and can fail over time. Moreover - I'm not just concerned about the alternator, but also all the electronics on the boat.

Part of my question is - is there any voltage spike at all when turning off a Balmar via the brown ignition wire? Presumably, the regulator could be set up by the manufacture to do a controlled ramp down of the field current on shut down? Balmar, in their documentation seems to indicate that turning off the alternator in this way is an OK practice, but they are a little cagey about it. Also, according to Mainesail, they used to oddly recommend you should cut the red power feed wire as well to ensure a full shut down? Not sure if this is still case with the newer units?

Happy New Year's to all!

BritS

Don't know if you are still reading this thread, but thought I would add some experience with shutting down Balmar 612 (not 614) regulator by switching off ignition. In fact I have done just that for literally hundreds of times, with no failures of my electronics (chartplotter, depthsounder, radar).
Why I do this? The Balmar 612 did not have an intelligent way to determine when to switch out of absorption mode to float mode. ( I understand the 614 models do have an algorithm to do this, indirectly. )
The 612 had simply a time in absorption setting which you could fix at whatever you wanted. I have AGM batteries. I usually set the time for 1 hour. If I know my house batteries need more charging beyond that time, I simply switch off my ignition for a few seconds, then turn it back on. This resets the absorption voltage timer so I get more charging.

I've done this as normal practice for at least 10 years and I don't know how many hours of motoring and cruising - as I said it's been hundreds of cycles, but with no ill effects on anything.

In that last couple years, the start battery and house battery are connected for charging from the alternator through a Victron FET isolator, previously I used a VSR setup. The alternator early on was Balmar 100A but that one froze up so now I use a stock auto model at about 60A.

I have always had a protection diode (from Balmar) across the alternator output.
As the house bank is still connected to the DC panel at all times, that's plenty of current sinking to prevent a spike should one occur at the alternator.
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Old 10-08-2021, 02:59   #71
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Re: Balmar 614 vs Li battery BMS cutout

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Also be aware, with the Balmar 614, the target voltage to transition from bulk to absorption charge is a minimum of 14.1V. It will stay in bulk for almost forever, since the LiFePo4 will suck all the power they get and the Voltage won't get to 14.1V until (too) full. I find 14.1V too high for my Lithiums ....
This is not true. The MC-614 can be programmed well below 14.1V, you just need to drop FV and AV first...
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Old 12-08-2021, 01:44   #72
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Re: Balmar 614 vs Li battery BMS cutout

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This is not true. The MC-614 can be programmed well below 14.1V, you just need to drop FV and AV first...

Correct, the Balmar 614 programming order is a bit weird - you have to scroll all the way down to FV and reduce it from the default so it’s at or below the value you want for AV, scroll all the way around to AV (just before FV) and reduce it from its default so it’s same or lower than your planned BV but same or higher than FV, then scroll all the way around a second time to BV (just before AV) and set that to whatever amount your battery wants, as long as it’s the same or higher than AV. In our case 13.8 BV, 13.8V AV, and 13.2V FV.

Refer to page 14 https://www.balmar.net/wp-content/up...ion-Manual.pdf
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Old 12-08-2021, 01:56   #73
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Re: Balmar 614 vs Li battery BMS cutout

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Chris,

This is because Dimitri has programmed the correct delays for shutting down via the brown wire into the Lithionics batteries. He learned why to do this well before he sold Clean Power Auto to Lithionics.

There are other BMS's that don't shut down the alternator slightly before the main contactor opens. In this scenario the MC-614 red/power wire is the best option in conjunction with another form of transient protection.

I had long talks with Michael, when he was still alive, about this very topic. If you wish to use the brown wire then the BMS needs to be able to shut down the alternator slightly ahead of the main BMS switch opening.

MC-614 B+/Red Power Wire = Instantaneous Shut Down

MC-614 Ignition/Brown Wire = Save Data Then Shut Down (not instantaneous)

MC-614 Field/Blue Wire = Never Use for BMS Shut Down




All of the above is directly from detailed notes from discussions I had with Michael Frost..

And the solution that allows you to use the ignition wire shut down option is a BMS that has separate relays for high voltage warning (that stops charge sources such as an alternator) and high voltage cutoff (that opens the switch between the battery and charge bus). Set the former to 3.55V per cell and the latter to 3.65V per cell, plus throw in a 5 minute delay between successive relay activation. Lots of time for a graceful shutdown of the alternator via the regulator.

Your BMS should be capable of this. If not, get a better BMS.
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Old 13-08-2021, 20:55   #74
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Re: Balmar 614 vs Li battery BMS cutout

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Originally Posted by witzgall View Post
Chris from Balmar here. Disconnecting the Ignition wire leading to the MC-614 is the correct and safe way to stop alternator charging in a controlled manner.
Chris
Does anyone know how much current is carried by the ignition wire? My BMS relay outputs are fused at 2A (7A for 100ms) and it would be nice to use them directly without an intermediate relay.

Also does disconnecting the ignition has any impact on the tachometer out sender wire? (will I loose the tachometer reading?)
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Old 17-08-2021, 10:38   #75
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Re: Balmar 614 vs Li battery BMS cutout

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And the solution that allows you to use the ignition wire shut down option is a BMS that has separate relays for high voltage warning (that stops charge sources such as an alternator) and high voltage cutoff (that opens the switch between the battery and charge bus). Set the former to 3.55V per cell and the latter to 3.65V per cell, plus throw in a 5 minute delay between successive relay activation. Lots of time for a graceful shutdown of the alternator via the regulator.

Your BMS should be capable of this. If not, get a better BMS.
This is exactly how I ended up putting my system together - which has been running now without problems for about 3 months. I have a BMS which allows me to disconnect the Balmar ignition sense wire (brown) at 3.55volts and a second master charge bus relay disconnect at 3.65 volts.

I am using a Victron Battery Protect as my charge bus disconnect relay, controlled by the BMS. Pls note: if starting again from scratch - i'm not sure i would use this relay for this use case as there is some voltage drop across this MOSFET based relay. A BlueSea ML 7133 latching relay might be a better option.
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