Balmar 614 vs Li battery BMS cutout

[rgleason]

This is a good report. Thanks.

Karanga configuration:

Configuration:Genset (120amps)

1. Alternator pre-2017 Balmar 614 regulator controlling a Balmar 180amp alternator set to AGM parameters.
2. 3 x 200 A/hr lithium batteries (600ah) with BMS, plus a 20 A/hr FLA in parallel.
3. FLA circuit has an isolation switch, to disconnect from the rest of the battery bank, if desired.

So far, the system is working very well.

1. Charging
   • via genset at 120amps gets the batteries full (has temperature sensor monitoring)
   • via Balmar 180amp alternator and 614 regulator is going well and gets to full charge. (has a battery temperature sensor). Belt Manager-derated the belt loading to setting of 3 (as per Balmar instructions), charging profile for AGM batteries. (good/bad?).
2. Discharging is going really well.
   • haven't gone below 75% so far, and easily make 2 cups of coffee via the inverter each morning before any solar charging kicks in.
3. FLA in parallel with LFP.
   1. The small lead acid battery appears to make no difference at all to the charging or discharging performance.
   2. However, because it can provide approx 400 CCA of starting power, it must be contributing significantly to the anchor windlass, plus the diesel genset starting using the house bank).
   3. I am assuming that the lead battery is available to serve its primary purpose of creating an emergency amp sink if ever the lithium BMS disconnects the batteries during high rates of charge from the alternator via the 614 regulator. I don't really want to test this...
4. Battery monitoring is more important to indicate state of charge, because the voltage sits permanently at 13.25 (not the slow decrease seen with lead batteries).

Original Question

I know I can modify the 614 charging profile, but I do wonder if it is possible for the internal BMS to ever disconnect the battery from the charging, and thereby potentially cause damage to the alternator (or the inverter or genset?).

The Balmar notes do mention this as a risk, but is it a realistic risk?

If I set the max (absorption and float) charge to 13.8v, would this mean that the batteries are never quite full so the BMS is less likely to disconnect?

Other Questions

What is the size of the small tractor FLA?

With the Belt Manager =3, what is the max charging amps that you see when the alternator is hot and LFP are charging?

What protects the Inverter and Genset, and DC equipment from disconnect spikes? The small FLA?

What is the highest charge rate in the system?

Observations:

I think you need to set the Balmar 614 settings, including Temperature Compensation=0.

Also I think you should run a Battery temperature sensor and set "B1L"
I think it is entirely possible for the BMS to shut off due to a low cell voltage, high temp in one of the cells, or over voltage in one of the cells, etc. Therefore I think that the small FLA with 400 cca should be confirmed as adequate.

[rgleason]

Looking at Frans Veldman's https://www.zwerfcat.nl/en/lithium-hybrid.html , specifically the diagram. It now appears to me that in this diagram, the Lithium/BMS disconnect relay is an internal relay in the Lithium BMS battery.

Is this a correct assumption for this configuration?

(I think it would be better if there was an external relay or no/nc contacts available to activate a relay for the field current of the alternator before the shutdown occurs.
Although I have been told that cutting the field concurrently with the BMS/LFP cutoff will be soon enough to save the alternator and prevent spikes. -It would be helpful if some else could confirm this.)

How can we calculate and size the capacity of the FLA battery to absorb the full spike from the Alternator and protect all DC Equipment, knowing the (Belt Manager) max amps the alternator is set to?
For example, if maximum alternator charging amps is 100a what size FLA battery is needed to absorb the spike when the BMS shuts off?

Is is possible to use an AGM battery in lieu of the FLA (due to the closer charge profile) or are it's chemistry and characteristics too different from FLA so that it is not a good a battery to protect from spikes?)

[rgleason]

Some additional thoughts and rephrasing of the questions:

1. With a hybrid lithium system which incorporates a small 20ah FLA tractor battery in parallel, can we be sure it is large enough to protect from transient voltage spikes when the BMS cuts off the LFP battery?
What is the math used to size the parallel FLA? Is it dependent on max charge rate? Would a small AGM battery work just as well?

2. Additionally to Protect the alternator regulator from BMS cutoff or Incorrect shutdown for what ever reason. As a backup to the small FLA battery in parallel with LFP, and to level out transients and further protect the DC Panel and electronics, I intend to use Littelfuse (2) $3 TVS diodes. SLD15U-017 - SLD Series $2.98 Here is a good writeup

This looks like an easy wiring diagram. How to Build a Transient Voltage Suppressor (TVS) Circuit. Although perhaps using the Balmar Spike Ground Protector for $29 would be just as good, though more expensive

3. I believe it would be best to start the engine using the starter bank rather than use the Hybrid Lithium House Bank, due to the high initial starting loads which may be over the BMS rating, particularly if the wiring in the BMS is just for 100 amps?

[Britishsea]

Sorry to revive an old thread... but I have a related question regarding load dump when interrupting a Balmar (614) regulated alternator.

What's the consensus on the voltage surge from bringing low the ignition wire on a Balmar? Is it a controlled reduction in the field current and so no significant load dump? Is this a safe way end charging by the alternator when it's in bulk?

The reason I asking is I am considering a design which would allow a BMS to control the Balmar end of charge cycle through the ignition control wire.

I know this is not a typical approach, and normally the BMS only provides cell level protection in the event of significant voltage cell drift, or an over temp condition. But there is some BMS functionality I would like to take advantage of which requires the BMS controls the charging. For system redundancy, I would set the Balmar charge profile to a safe level just above the cut off voltage of the BMS. A start battery would also be in the system isolated by a Victron Argofet.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Britishsea

Sorry to revive an old thread... but I have a related question regarding load dump when interrupting a Balmar (614) regulated alternator.

What's the consensus on the voltage surge from bringing low the ignition wire on a Balmar? Is it a controlled reduction in the field current and so no significant load dump? Is this a safe way end charging by the alternator when it's in bulk?

The reason I asking is I am considering a design which would allow a BMS to control the Balmar end of charge cycle through the ignition control wire.

I know this is not a typical approach, and normally the BMS only provides cell level protection in the event of significant voltage cell drift, or an over temp condition. But there is some BMS functionality I would like to take advantage of which requires the BMS controls the charging. For system redundancy, I would set the Balmar charge profile to a safe level just above the cut off voltage of the BMS. A start battery would also be in the system isolated by a Victron Argofet.

Your alternator is safe because of the ArgoFET and start battery. Your LFP battery is safe when you program the Balmar 614 correctly for LFP. Your BMS protects in case of overcharge. I don’t think you need anything extra.

Improvement is a dc-dc charger instead of ArgoFET so that you can charge both battery chemistries at optimal algorithm.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Your alternator is safe because of the ArgoFET and start battery. Your LFP battery is safe when you program the Balmar 614 correctly for LFP. Your BMS protects in case of overcharge. I don’t think you need anything extra.

Improvement is a dc-dc charger instead of ArgoFET so that you can charge both battery chemistries at optimal algorithm.

Thank you Jedi for contributing your knowledge. You and the other experts here discussing the fine points and difficulties are very worthwhile to read. There is always something new to learn and understand, and without dialog like this, there is no learning!

I had not considered a DC/DC charger capable of taking the transient spike of a BMS cutoff of LFP. Is there some size limit on this? Would a DC/DC 5a or 10a to the starter battery be able to survive a spike and save the alternator diodes too? Maybe a bigger one is better? (I know electricity is sort of like water piping (V=IR), but don't have a good understanding of electrical magnitudes) and there are many ways to "skin the cat" it appears. I am trying to find the simplest most reliable conformant system that I can install myself at reasonable cost.

For example, I am in the process of installing a modified Delco Remy 28SI 12v/160a alternator that will be belt managed down so that under continuous hot load it goes no higher than about 100a. When the BMS/LFP shuts down will the alternator be protected going through a small DC/DC charger to the FLA?

Would an ArgoFET also survive such a BMS LFP cutoff and protect the alternator too? I wonder what the disadvantages are?

I have considered a secondary backup to protect the alternator of BMS (single or double port)/LFP shutdown with dry contact disconnect of the alternator field wire. It appears this complication is completely unnecessary, and that good packaged BMS/LFP batteries (like Battleborn, etc) without external connections for a relay are perfectly ok to use (although they are more expensive than DIY BMS/LFP). (Contrary to my opinion stated elsewhere in this forum - Sorry about that).

[rgleason]

We seem to learn important "nuggets" from experts in this forum, like Dsanduril.
For some more context on spike loads looking at Dsanduril's post is very helpful.
Correct FLA battery size for Lithium Hybrid Confiiguration

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3271386

[rgleason]

Please keep in mind that I am just "reporting" here. I found an email to all VSR Alternator Regulator [Smart Alt] group from Al Thomason, now Wakespeed WS500, partially quoted below. It appears to me this is relevant, but I may be wrong about that.

Oddly, because 25 years ago I was cautious, I still have a Zap Stop on our Balmar alternator from the same year, which I am going replace. I don't know if the Zap is burnt out however! Incidentally some others on the forum think the Zap Stop and the Balmar similar device are not adequate for BMS/LFP cutoffs. I would be interested in factual information about this.

"

All,

Hope this Email finds folks well. This week I was contacted by someone with a FET overtemp hard fault, upon more investigation it turned out the field drive FETs had failed, causing the overtemp.

In the cases I have been able to directly examine, these types of failures have been caused universally by unsuppressed voltage spikes on the +12v (or +24v) feed. Well known, and one of the defined ‘issues’ by SAE in transportation – the common approach to snubbing these spikes are through the use of avalanche diodes in the alternator.

And there is the rub,

It seems some aftermarket / rebuilt alternators do not use avalanche diodes, instead using lower-cost (and perhaps slightly more efficient) standard diodes in their rectifier pack. Leaving the system unprotected.

Though we have taken steps in the WS500 offering to mitigate this (And yes, this is part of the learning’s I got from the technology transfer from Michal Frost), I wanted to send this Email out to VSR folks and suggest a good protection might be to add one of the old ‘Zap Stop’ devices to their alternators, if there is any question. (The way to tell is place a storage O’Scope on the system for a period of time and run all the devices aboard. Looking for voltage spikes just a few mS long)

The issue with these spikes is they “appear” to come randomly. And depending on the vessel can occur within weeks, or maybe a couple of years after install. All depends on phase of moon, tides, what you named your 1st born, and a few other ‘dark’ conditions. (Actually, related largely to inductive loads being turned off such as: DC Refrigerators, windlass, even the alternator its self)

If you have any concern, I would suggest adding a Zap Stop type device to your alternators. The old Zap Stop is fine. Purchasing a TVS diode such as the MR2535L used in the old Zap_Stop, or perhaps this device would work well.
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...52Bcl%252B4%3D
"

I believe Chris W. said (perhaps it was someone else) said that Balmar's Spike Protector should not be relied on for the purpose of a BMS/LFP cutoff to protect the alternator diodes. I haven't found the post unfortunately, perhaps it is in the other thread.
https://balmar.net/product/spike-protector-tsp-12/
However in combination with a small FLA Battery it would certainly help.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Thank you Jedi for contributing your knowledge. You and the other experts here discussing the fine points and difficulties are very worthwhile to read. There is always something new to learn and understand, and without dialog like this, there is no learning!

I had not considered a DC/DC charger capable of taking the transient spike of a BMS cutoff of LFP. Is there some size limit on this? Would a DC/DC 5a or 10a to the starter battery be able to survive a spike and save the alternator diodes too? Maybe a bigger one is better? (I know electricity is sort of like water piping (V=IR), but don't have a good understanding of electrical magnitudes) and there are many ways to "skin the cat" it appears. I am trying to find the simplest most reliable conformant system that I can install myself at reasonable cost.

For example, I am in the process of installing a modified Delco Remy 28SI 12v/160a alternator that will be belt managed down so that under continuous hot load it goes no higher than about 100a. When the BMS/LFP shuts down will the alternator be protected going through a small DC/DC charger to the FLA?

Would an ArgoFET also survive such a BMS LFP cutoff and protect the alternator too? I wonder what the disadvantages are?

I have considered a secondary backup to protect the alternator of BMS (single or double port)/LFP shutdown with dry contact disconnect of the alternator field wire. It appears this complication is completely unnecessary, and that good packaged BMS/LFP batteries (like Battleborn, etc) without external connections for a relay are perfectly ok to use (although they are more expensive than DIY BMS/LFP). (Contrary to my opinion stated elsewhere in this forum - Sorry about that).

It is not the ArgoFET or DC-DC charger protecting against the transients in case of a high cell voltage cutoff by the BMS: it is the AGM start battery that absorbs it, so key is to keep that AGM battery on the alternator at all times.

When you accept that with the Balmar regulator programmed for lithium, the start battery won’t get fully charged anymore which reduces it’s lifespan, thenyou don’t need to do anything. You already invested in the ArgoFET so I would keep it as is for now and only change to a DC-DC charger when the lifespan of the start battery turns out unacceptably short.

For DC-DC converter I went for 2x Victron Orion Smart DC-DC converters. As my house bank is 24V, they also step up from 12V to 24V. Each one can take a maximum of 30A from the alternator to charge the house bank and their smart features include detection of alternator charge output and programming and monitoring using an app on phone/tablet. They can be programmed as a charger for every battery chemistry as well as a standard power supply (I use that to make a clean 13.8V power for electronics). You can simply add multiple units in parallel to increase capacity but make sure you don’t overload the alternator.

[Britishsea]

S/V Jedi & rgleason,

thanks for your detailed replies. I have some further reading to do in the New Year!

I understand that the split charge Argofet will allow an alternator a load dump a path to my start battery. Also, keep in the mind the lifepo4 battery will still be in-line with the alternator, as the charging is proposed to be ended by taking the Balamar ignition wire low, not breaking the connection to the LFP battery.

However, I know that Fet (mosfet?) based equipment like the Argofet do not like voltage spikes and can fail over time. Moreover - I'm not just concerned about the alternator, but also all the electronics on the boat.

Part of my question is - is there any voltage spike at all when turning off a Balmar via the brown ignition wire? Presumably, the regulator could be set up by the manufacture to do a controlled ramp down of the field current on shut down? Balmar, in their documentation seems to indicate that turning off the alternator in this way is an OK practice, but they are a little cagey about it. Also, according to Mainesail, they used to oddly recommend you should cut the red power feed wire as well to ensure a full shut down? Not sure if this is still case with the newer units?

Happy New Year's to all!

BritS

[Britishsea]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Your alternator is safe because of the ArgoFET and start battery. Your LFP battery is safe when you program the Balmar 614 correctly for LFP. Your BMS protects in case of overcharge. I don’t think you need anything extra.

Improvement is a dc-dc charger instead of ArgoFET so that you can charge both battery chemistries at optimal algorithm.

S/V Jedi,

I considered the DC-DC charger route but was put off by a few perceived issues.

On the plus side I would not need an Argofet and save some $ and charge voltage for the start battery and LFP would be correct.

It would also simplify the BMS controlling charge cut off.


I have a sail boat and run my engines typically only an hour a day to get to-and-from anchorage. So I have a short widow to get power back in the batteries.

I went with LFP as they charge quickly. To do that with DC-DC chargers I would need to have a lot of them and that gets quite pricey.

Also, there seems to be issues with sizing DC-DC chargers more than the output current of your alternator at idle (in my case, 40 amps) . If you go more than your idle output, your start battery takes up the load, which is not ideal. I think there is a volt sense function on the input side of the Victron to avoid draining the start battery. Not sure if you can adjust the cut off voltage for that function?

[CarlF]

The Sterling Alternator Protector is an improved "Zap-stopper" in that it doesn't burn out out. At about $80 it seems like a good idea in addition to whatever other surge management you install.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03SQMDnY6O0&t=88s

[rgleason]

BritishSea,
This is exactly right, brown ignition wire instead of the field wire. I was searching in my Balmar emails for several by Dale English where he kept correcting me...!! I believe this is the safer way to do it for sure, but that does not answer your questions unfortunately.

"Part of my question is - is there any voltage spike at all when turning off a Balmar via the brown ignition wire?"

Our boat is on a mooring, never sees a slip and similarly, I would like to cruise with just 1-2hr/day of engine in and out of harbors while we charge batts and charge up our Ozifridge Eutectic on full speed (7a) and then not have to use the engine.

BMS/LFP with a large alternator starts to get there. Augment with a little solar will help. But keeping the system simple and reliable without a lot of gear is absolutely essential for this small boat, as there is no place to put it all.

Jedi, thanks your clarifying statements.
CarlF, thanks I will listen to your link, you have suggested it several times so it must be good.
Its the Sterling Alternator Protector, which is a reasonable solution to Alt protection. About $79. Another device.

BTW, Both Balmar and Wakespeed have small print that suggest keeping a small FLA tractor battery in line to protect the alternator diodes in the event of a 3-way switch disconnection, BMS/LFP disconnection, etc.

It appears the Sterling Alternator Protection device would be a good alternative to an FLA battery. Then the alternator could be connected directly to the BMS/LFP provided the charge routine parameters are for LFP and a Sterling Alternator Protect is used instead of an FLA battery?

What about Brown wire disconnection alternative activated by the BMS at the alarm stage before the disconnection occurs?
Says to me we should be using BMS Canbus control wires to control the charge devices.
Too bad there are not opensource Canbus charge instructions and opensource devices that use this control system for DC-DC charger, Alternators, Solar, Wind, Water etc.. Use any BMS with canbus and openssource canbus charge devices.

[ronstory]

Interesting video and thanks for sharing.

Did anyone else notice at 4:30 when the demo guy reconnected the alternator after the disconnect it only went back to 150A for a moment and then drop to something like 110A?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Britishsea

S/V Jedi & rgleason,

thanks for your detailed replies. I have some further reading to do in the New Year!

I understand that the split charge Argofet will allow an alternator a load dump a path to my start battery. Also, keep in the mind the lifepo4 battery will still be in-line with the alternator, as the charging is proposed to be ended by taking the Balamar ignition wire low, not breaking the connection to the LFP battery.

However, I know that Fet (mosfet?) based equipment like the Argofet do not like voltage spikes and can fail over time. Moreover - I'm not just concerned about the alternator, but also all the electronics on the boat.

Part of my question is - is there any voltage spike at all when turning off a Balmar via the brown ignition wire? Presumably, the regulator could be set up by the manufacture to do a controlled ramp down of the field current on shut down? Balmar, in their documentation seems to indicate that turning off the alternator in this way is an OK practice, but they are a little cagey about it. Also, according to Mainesail, they used to oddly recommend you should cut the red power feed wire as well to ensure a full shut down? Not sure if this is still case with the newer units?

Happy New Year's to all!

BritS

In order for a transient spike to happen, all batteries must disconnect. When the AGM stays connected while the LFP disconnects, there is no spike to damage alternator nor ArgoFET.

Also, if you turn off the regulator, regardless of how, it will cut the field current to the alternator, which makes it drop the output without any spikes. The discussion on how to stop the regulator is that Balmar has a description in their manual but others (incl. Rod Collins iirc) recommend to take power off the whole regulator as a safety measure, in case the regulator itself has failed. It is important to understand the difference between the two: the Balmar method is to be used when you want to stop charging in a controlled manner, i.e. when the battery monitor signals a full battery or when the BMS activates a warning. Taking the power off the regulator as some advocate is to be done as a last resort safety, i.e. instead of interrupting the charge current that would lead to a transient surge.

When charge sources are all correctly configured for lfp, the only time the BMS should sound an alarm of even disconnect the battery during alternator charging, is when the cells have ran out of balance and one cell is too high in voltage or when the temperature is too low to charge.

Conclusion: when you use the relay in a battery monitor to stop charging (preferred option when charger did not switch to float yet) then use the regular method as described in the Balmar manual. When you use the alarm from a BMS then this is a rare event so use the “take power of whole regulator “ method to make sure it stops.