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20-12-2018, 17:28
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#61
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Canada and Caribbean
Boat: Jeanneau 36 and C&C 29 MkII
Posts: 178
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Re: Any two years reviews for Firefly batteries?
I am now into my second season with the Oasis Firefly.
My house bank is made up with the Firefly's and I have a regular run of the mill, off the shelf start battery.
All charging sources go to the house bank and when the house bank is being charged, the start gets charged via a Balmar Duo Charger. I cannot understand why anyone would use a Firefly as a start battery.
I installed a Serpentine belt kit on the engine along with a 160 amp alternator with external regulator. I have 300 watts of solar. The boat is located in the Caribbean.
On the hook, in the morning, I am usually down by 20% capacity ( Balmar Smart Gauge ) from the previous day. This gets replenished by solar in most cases. If not, I only need to run the 160 amp alternator for enough time to make hot water to rapidly bring the bank up and let the solar "top it off". The Oasis will accept a higher charging current than a regular AGM.
The biggest thing that has happened to me so far and would have absolutely killed a bank of Lead Acid AGM's is the fact that I laid the boat up for 6 months, without any external charging sources of any kind. Not only that, I disconnected the batteries but forgot one item that maintained a very small parasitic draw. When I came back to the boat 6 months later, my house bank was sitting at 5.8 VDC.
I figured I had killed them for sure. Nope, they came back, accepted a charge using the shore power and as far as I can tell, I have not lost any capacity.
So this may not help the debate on cycles but one thing is for sure, if they had been Lifeline AGM's or similar, they would have been dead. Regardless of the number of cycles.
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20-12-2018, 21:29
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#62
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Toronto summer rest somewhere else
Boat: Outremer 45/pdq36
Posts: 1,169
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Re: Any two years reviews for Firefly batteries?
Pete o static very happy to here that
__________________
“Growing older but not up”
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23-12-2018, 03:49
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#63
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Panama, Central America
Boat: CT 49, 1989
Posts: 969
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Re: Any two years reviews for Firefly batteries?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkleins
So in other words you just made it up.
I routinely discharge mine to around 70-80% and have been going good for three years. I know of no one else who has had the steep or “major” drop off in capacity that you mentioned in your first post. In fact the exact opposite is true. Most of the posters here aren’t seeing a capacity fall off. Please don’t just make crap up. You often post useful information but knowing now that it is just coming off the top of your head or from extrapolation of some belief about “battery chemistry” it all seems suspect.
Jim
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I think what John61ct is saying is generally accepted as being true for all batteries chemistries. This video is about Tesla batteries but explains this concept pretty well (starts around 6.58)-
Theses guys have seemingly put a lot of effort researching this stuff. Not to say it is all correct or they know everything. Let's face it this stuff is new and still being developed. The experts and industry leaders are still learning.
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23-12-2018, 06:12
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#64
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Any two years reviews for Firefly batteries?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q Xopa
I think what John61ct is saying is generally accepted as being true for all batteries chemistries.
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Well that is maybe overstating it, all it takes is one weird counter-example to be false.
But it definitely is true for all Pb batteries, also NMC, LFP, Lipo, LTO, LCO, every chemistry I've worked with or read about, so pretty safe to say "every chemistry in current / common use".
But going to the trouble of "finding sources" for something so common sense and well known?
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23-12-2018, 06:28
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#65
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Panama, Central America
Boat: CT 49, 1989
Posts: 969
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Re: Any two years reviews for Firefly batteries?
Actually wasnt searching for a reference for this thread. I saw that video looking for other stuff, but happen to remember reading this thread with someone questioning the concept.
I obviously need a real hobby.
Yeh as you correctly say absolutes have a habit of being obsolete quickly.
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23-12-2018, 09:15
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#66
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 2,103
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Re: Any two years reviews for Firefly batteries?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q Xopa
I think what John61ct is saying is generally accepted as being true for all batteries chemistries. This video is about Tesla batteries but explains this concept pretty well (starts around 6.58).
Theses guys have seemingly put a lot of effort researching this stuff. Not to say it is all correct or they know everything. Let's face it this stuff is new and still being developed. The experts and industry leaders are still learning.
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Probably not the best example of increased longevity with shallower discharges since Tesla recommends that this Lithium Cobalt Aluminum anode battery be discharged to no more than 30% SoC for maximum longevity.
Definitely true for LFP, which calls into question the wisdom of hyperventilation over never, ever under any circumstances charge LFP batteries even close to the shoulders if you want them to last. What is important, as Mainesail has painstakingly tried to point out, usually fruitlessly in these discussions, is that it is the duration at the high end charging voltage that matters.
Worth remembering that not very long ago JohnCT recommended storing LFP batteries at 20 - 30%, which I guess means you have to discharge them to that level if you want to store them at that SoC. New day, new information I guess.
__________________
https://delfin.talkspot.com
I can picture in my head a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey
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23-12-2018, 09:39
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#67
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Portland, OR USA
Boat: C&C 35 MK-II
Posts: 386
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Re: Any two years reviews for Firefly batteries?
Actually 40% is considered the ideal SoC for lithiums, but the most important point is to avoid storing at 100% fully charged. I normally try for 80% (eg. not 100%) and that have been working well for my lithium products. YMMV.
While 40% is ideal, I don't like the outcome of having a low state of charge and forgetting about a battery for a year or so.
Just do a google search for "lithium battery storage charge" for the 40% SoC reference.
Also, if you want to see what 100% SoC in storage does to capacity, click the URL below and look for "Table 3". Ouch.
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ased_batteries
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
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23-12-2018, 13:27
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#68
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 2,103
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Re: Any two years reviews for Firefly batteries?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronstory
Actually 40% is considered the ideal SoC for lithiums, but the most important point is to avoid storing at 100% fully charged. I normally try for 80% (eg. not 100%) and that have been working well for my lithium products. YMMV.
While 40% is ideal, I don't like the outcome of having a low state of charge and forgetting about a battery for a year or so.
Just do a google search for "lithium battery storage charge" for the 40% SoC reference.
Also, if you want to see what 100% SoC in storage does to capacity, click the URL below and look for "Table 3". Ouch.
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ased_batteries
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40-50% is generally where I leave my LFO bank.
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23-12-2018, 19:51
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#69
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: On a boat
Boat: 1987 Cabo Rico 38 #117 (sold) & 2008 Manta 42 #124
Posts: 4,172
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Re: Any two years reviews for Firefly batteries?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkleins
There is one problem in that I have killed two engine start batteries because i use an Echocharger to charge them and since the charging voltage is lower then typical AGMs or flooded then engine never really gets charged.
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I have the same problem... what solution are you exploring?
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23-12-2018, 21:12
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#70
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Any two years reviews for Firefly batteries?
I have never advocated trying to get longer life out of LFP by avoiding high DoD.
I believe quite possible to get a decade or more even in full-time use following avoid the shoulders, so stopping at 3.99V seems just fine.
Of course if starting ICE is easy convenient and serves other useful purposes than just recharging then doing so sooner rather than waiting, why not?
But to me "storage" means long-term, so there would be no impact at all on longevity doing so lower than 40-50%, we're just talking what a few dozen cycles out of many thousand? Hardly worth discussion.
The key is, if that storage means no one checking for many months, do not take any risks of going lower than that 3.99V. So the actual SoC when isolating is a grey area judgment call, no single reco applies to all the use cases.
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24-12-2018, 07:38
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#71
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 2,103
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Re: Any two years reviews for Firefly batteries?
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
I have never advocated trying to get longer life out of LFP by avoiding high DoD.
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Of course you did. Just a few posts ago - as in #46. Unless you think LFP isn't one of the commonly used chemistries you referred to. By the way, yes, you'll get higher life out of any commonly used battery chemistry by avoiding deep discharge, so I guess you were right the first time you said this with authority, and wrong when you say the opposite with authority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
I believe quite possible to get a decade or more even in full-time use following avoid the shoulders, so stopping at 3.99V seems just fine.
Of course if starting ICE is easy convenient and serves other useful purposes than just recharging then doing so sooner rather than waiting, why not?
But to me "storage" means long-term, so there would be no impact at all on longevity doing so lower than 40-50%, we're just talking what a few dozen cycles out of many thousand? Hardly worth discussion.
The key is, if that storage means no one checking for many months, do not take any risks of going lower than that 3.99V. So the actual SoC when isolating is a grey area judgment call, no single reco applies to all the use cases.
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Since you repeat the 3.99 v twice, I guess it must not be a typo, but what are you talking about here? Cell voltage? LFP? LA?
__________________
https://delfin.talkspot.com
I can picture in my head a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey
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26-12-2018, 16:00
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#72
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: On a boat
Boat: 1987 Cabo Rico 38 #117 (sold) & 2008 Manta 42 #124
Posts: 4,172
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Re: Any two years reviews for Firefly batteries?
Here is a test report I received from Firefly...
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26-12-2018, 17:33
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#73
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Portland, OR USA
Boat: C&C 35 MK-II
Posts: 386
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Re: Any two years reviews for Firefly batteries?
Okay at 10.5 volts the state of charge is 0%. You are a pioneer :-)
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26-12-2018, 17:54
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#74
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Any two years reviews for Firefly batteries?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin
Of course you did.
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No. Stating the correlation is true, is not advocating a choice best left to the owner.
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26-12-2018, 18:00
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#75
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Any two years reviews for Firefly batteries?
3.99V was a typo, brain fart, I apologize and thank you sir for keeping me honest 8-)
2.99Vpc, or just below 12V for 4S, my definition of zero SoC, below which There Be Dragons.
10.5V is industry standard for lead 0% SoC for capacity testing, and not healthy to let it sit there any length of time, start recharging immediately.
If you let 4S LFP get anywhere near that, you're risking instant scrapification.
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