Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-03-2020, 20:40   #1
Registered User

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia
Boat: Dufour 310
Posts: 171
Alternator voltage high D1-20f

My 3 year old Dufour 310 with volvo penta d1-20f which has the 115amp alternator is not regulating.

Alarm is coming on and when checking the battery is over 15V

Checking with a multimeter is showing 16v which does not change with revs.

I replaced the battery but no help. 70A lead acid

I imagine it is the regulator in the alternator.

My problem is that it is impossible to get at and i may have to move the motor forward to remove the alternator.

It is producing current okay. There is no Solar or other inputs.

Is it possible to fit an external regulator ? Hopefully, without having to do anything to the existing alternator.?

Also anyone else had this problem on a relatively new motor.
ben373 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2020, 20:56   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,008
Re: Alternator voltage high D1-20f

Yes, other people have had relatively new alternator regulators fail. It happens.

Yes you CAN fit an external regulator, BUT... There is no way to retrofit an external regulator to an internally regulated alternator without having the alternator in hand and opening it up to access the internal wiring.

This is vital to fix. It is COOKING your batteries, dangerously so.

It is a shame that your boat was designed with so little thought that the alternator can't be removed without moving the engine, but if that's what you need to do to fix it, then that's what you need to do!
billknny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2020, 21:16   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: canada
Posts: 3,559
Re: Alternator voltage high D1-20f

The Volvo’s often have voltage sense wires going from a alt post to the battery. If this was lose or disconnected it would cause your havoc.
smac999 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2020, 22:28   #4
Registered User
 
Dsanduril's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Petersburg, AK
Boat: Outremer 50S
Posts: 3,862
Re: Alternator voltage high D1-20f

The stock Mitsubishi alternator uses a separate voltage sense wire as smac999 says. It is a small ~14 AWG wire, yellow in the default harness, that runs from the back of the alternator to the starter post. If that connection gets loose or corroded it can cause your symptoms.

As a quick test you can disconnect the yellow wire (make sure to insulate the end, it will be hot when the engine is running) and try running without it. If there is zero voltage on the sense terminal the regulator defaults to sensing from the main battery connection.

Also check the negative battery cable connection to the engine block and the alternator mounting. Resistance/corrosion at these locations can lead to bad voltage sensing.
Dsanduril is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2020, 08:30   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 100
Re: Alternator voltage high D1-20f

As previously stated the first thing to check is the sense wire. Most likely it is either a loose connection or corrosion at the battery. It is possible for the wire to be broken internally. Since you can't get at the alternator end try using an ohmmeter with one lead at the battery in with it disconnected from the battery and the other Probe on both the the positive and ground output wires from the alternator to the battery. Shake the wire while you're doing this. Also run the same test with the ohmmeter meter probes reversed. The next easiest thing to try is placing a DC power supply or several Flashlight batteries in series and raise a sense wire voltage up to 16 or 17 volt if output voltage does not come down then the sense circuit most likely has malfunction. The next backup is to Place several diodes in series with the voltage output going to the battery. use some fairly large diodes at least 100 amps. For starting point assume the Silicon voltage drop will be about seven tenths of a volt. There are other ways to compensate but they're probably more complicated than you want to attempt yourself.
lvictorlucas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2020, 10:26   #6
MJH
Registered User
 
MJH's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Boat: Tayana Vancouver 42ac
Posts: 727
Re: Alternator voltage high D1-20f

Quote:
Originally Posted by ben373 View Post
My 3 year old Dufour 310 with volvo penta d1-20f which has the 115amp alternator is not regulating.

Alarm is coming on and when checking the battery is over 15V

Checking with a multimeter is showing 16v which does not change with revs.

I replaced the battery but no help. 70A lead acid

I imagine it is the regulator in the alternator.

My problem is that it is impossible to get at and i may have to move the motor forward to remove the alternator.

It is producing current okay. There is no Solar or other inputs.

Is it possible to fit an external regulator ? Hopefully, without having to do anything to the existing alternator.?

Also anyone else had this problem on a relatively new motor.
I would recommend adding an External Regulator (such as the Balmar MC-614-H) and having your present Alternator serviced at an electrical shop to remove its internal regulation. This should remove the problem and give you total control of charging.

I commiserate with you on the difficulty getting to various engine parts, most of us suffer as well. However, I would be very surprised to learn that there is absolutely no way to remove the alternator without moving the engine, it just doesn't make sense. Perhaps you can contact a dealer or other maintenance shop to learn their "secret".

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH
MJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2020, 13:36   #7
Registered User

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia
Boat: Dufour 310
Posts: 171
Re: Alternator voltage high D1-20f

Solved

Thanks for your help everyone.

It was the sense wire. It came up to a battery combiner, diode type.

The sense wire was on the house battery but the diode in the combiner appears to be open circuit. So the house battery was not charging and the sense wire staying low.

So the start battery kept going up. The motor alarm came on at 15v. All makes sense now, well the lack of it!!

It was your advice though that put me on the right track. Thanks so much.

Now to find a new combiner.

It is a sure power model 1202

Strangely, some power goes to the house through this?

Once the motor is stopped the combiner isolates power back to the alternator. This is used to control relays for bilge fan and windlass it seems.


Click image for larger version

Name:	80051FL.gif
Views:	44
Size:	89.5 KB
ID:	210604
ben373 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2020, 14:04   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: canada
Posts: 3,559
Re: Alternator voltage high D1-20f

look at the victron argo fet model.

you don't want another diode combiner. they are old junk.
smac999 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2020, 17:26   #9
Registered User
 
CarinaPDX's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Boat: 31' Cape George Cutter
Posts: 2,770
Re: Alternator voltage high D1-20f

I recommend, whatever you do with the diode pack, to add a Nordkyn VRC-200 controller. This does not require modifying the alternator. Instead it uses the yellow voltage sense wire to "trick" the internal regulator into following an appropriate multi-stage charging profile. It is simple to install and keeps the internal regulator's thermal protections in place.

The bleeding edge crowd love to put down older technologies - try to put that into perspective. Diode isolators are inexpensive and work well; the loss of energy is small and rarely has any effect. The main downside is that the starting battery is going to stay at acceptance charge voltage longer than ideal. It is quite acceptable to just replace with another diode pack, but do be certain that it is rated for that 115A alternator.

That said, I have come to think that it is preferable to hard-wire the house bank to the alternator, with a separate DC-DC battery charger connected to the start battery (which only turns on when the alternator is working). This arrangement allows the alternator to properly, and reliably, charge the house bank. The separate DC-DC charger can then maintain the starting battery without overcharging. A smart battery combiner is another possibility, which I bought but haven't installed yet; it is not quite as good of a solution for caring for the starting battery. There are long threads that discuss these options more fully so search a bit before proceeding.

Greg
CarinaPDX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2020, 17:42   #10
Registered User
 
Dsanduril's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Petersburg, AK
Boat: Outremer 50S
Posts: 3,862
Re: Alternator voltage high D1-20f

I agree with CarinaPDX that the VRC-200 is a great piece of kit for these alternators, if a bit spendy.

One caution about trying to remove the internal regulator to go some other direction (Balmar external, whatever) - the stock Mistubishi alternators on the Volvo's are N-type (negative field), most aftermarket regulators are P-type (positive field). It's not a big job to make the switch, but it adds a minor bit of complication if you want to go down that road.

If you go back to a diode (or even an FET) isolator, the best practice (opinion, of course) is to wire the alternator output/direct connection to the same battery as the sense wire and the isolated output to the other battery. This does mean that if you had the exact same problem again your engine battery would not get charged, but you shouldn't over-volt your house bank. And you should get an alarm from your engine panel if the start battery isn't charging.
Dsanduril is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2021, 13:24   #11
Registered User

Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 3
Re: Alternator voltage high D1-20f

Hi, I have a similar problem. But I moved to one battery bank system and removed the diode which was same brand as I thought it was not needed. I ended up with the fan running when I turn power on directly though which is probably a result of there not being a diode to block power to the alternator when the motor is not running. It looks like I need to check how the relay is wired. Any ideas? The motor is a d1-20 and fitted in a J97. What I found was as well a yellow cable behind the alternator not connected to anything.
Nubben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2021, 21:08   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: canada
Posts: 3,559
Re: Alternator voltage high D1-20f

What fan? Bilge blower?

Most boats do not have a diode splitter. Removing one should cause no issues. Something else is happening.

Maybe someone tapped power from the alt post (behind diode) so it only had power while engine running. But that was incorrect of them to do that.
smac999 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2021, 23:03   #13
Registered User

Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 3
Re: Alternator voltage high D1-20f

Quote:
Originally Posted by smac999 View Post
What fan? Bilge blower?

Most boats do not have a diode splitter. Removing one should cause no issues. Something else is happening.

Maybe someone tapped power from the alt post (behind diode) so it only had power while engine running. But that was incorrect of them to do that.
Engine room fan, compulsory around here for CE certification.

What would be the correct way to control an engine room fan/ventilator with a VP D1-20?
Nubben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2021, 23:33   #14
Registered User
 
CarinaPDX's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Boat: 31' Cape George Cutter
Posts: 2,770
Re: Alternator voltage high D1-20f

The yellow wire is the voltage sense for the alternator's internal regulator. The connection on the alternator is to a 1/4" spade terminal on the outside of the back towards the top, and the other end is connected to the battery connection on the starter solenoid. With the diodes the wire should have been connected to a battery instead of the solenoid. When you removed the diodes the wire could remain connected to the battery or back to the solenoid; leaving it disconnected is not a valid option.

The normal way for connecting an exhaust fan is to use the optional auxiliary relay. The relay is plugged into the engine's harness and should come on when the engine is started. Presumably the power for the fan is sourced from the starter battery through a fuse and the relay. The MDI should power the relay when the alternator starts to output current, which it senses with the brown wire connected to the "D" terminal on the alternator.

I advise you to dig up the engine schematics and confirm that the wiring is now back to stock, or get someone who knows what they are doing. While I think what I wrote above is correct it is your responsibility to confirm before proceeding. Mistakes here can have dire consequences...

Greg
CarinaPDX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2021, 05:19   #15
Senior Cruiser
 
GordMay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 41,558
Images: 241
Re: Alternator voltage high D1-20f

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Nubben.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
alternator

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Alternator: Voltage or current limited with high load? ayates Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 75 23-10-2020 05:46
For Sale: Yanmar 2gm 20f sailboat diesel engine resoluute General Classifieds (no boats) 0 27-02-2020 07:33
Volvo d1-20F seawater in coolant ben373 Engines and Propulsion Systems 2 02-12-2018 11:03
Yanmar 2gm 20f water cooling problem CharlesNeilson Engines and Propulsion Systems 14 31-07-2018 18:53
High voltage, Alternator Vasco Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 15 21-08-2017 14:14

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:19.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.