Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-09-2021, 06:08   #1
Registered User
 
ranger42c's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 58' Sedan bridge
Posts: 4,729
All-in-one power station instead of inverter/charger/battery bank?

There's a recent thread on trawlerforum about using a power station, with built-in lithium battery and BMS, in place of an inverter and battery bank.

Two examples are:
https://www.hysolis.com/product-page...n-3-kw-4-5-kwh
https://www.bluetti.com/products/blu...-power-station

The second of those uses LifePo4. Eventually also feeding something like that with solar at some future time might be useful.

I'm a little intrigued by this approach, partly because I've not yet had this new-to-us boat long enough to suss out where I might install an inverter/charger and yet another battery bank to supply it. The all-in-one approach seems relatively compact, perhaps it'd be easier to find a likely home for it. LifePo4 would be physically much smaller and weigh less than a more traditional lead-acid bank of appropriate size. I can envision (without having checked, yet) installing something like this almost directly below our main AC/DC distribution panel, and wiring it to our target 120V AC breakers, I suspect very easy.

I haven't done my "consumption math" yet, but the general idea, when not on shorepower or genset, would be to power two AC-only fridges, one AC-only freezer, one AC-only ice maker, occasional brief use of an electric coffee maker, occasional brief use of a microwave/convection combo, occasional use of the TV/stereo entertainment system, and all of the AC outlets on the boat (mostly for charging phones, laptops, handheld VHF, intercom headsets, and so forth).

The main goal would be NOT running the generator overnight while at anchor. Secondary goal would be not running the genset every time we're underway, assuming no aircon needed on a given day.

I'd still envision re-charging batteries (including this "bank") with genset at least 2x/day, coinciding with cooking (electric galley) and with heating water.

My guess so far is that something like the Bluetti unit (or similar) would actually be less expensive than a similarly sized inverter/charger plus decent battery bank plus wiring. If that "decent" battery bank is also LifePo4, then adding a BMS would be yet another factor.

All that said... commentary from the membership here would be very useful! I'm not intellectually, philosophically, or emotionally invested in the idea -- so the good, the bad, and the ugly would be quite welcome!

-Chris
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, USA.
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2021, 06:26   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 9,154
Re: All-in-one power station instead of inverter/charger/battery bank?

Really need to do your consumption mayh, ie the problem, before you can discuss a solution. The 2nd unit you mentioned had a 2000wh batyery. That's about 17amps at 120v for 1 hour.
__________________
Paul
Paul L is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2021, 06:43   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rochester, NY
Boat: Chris Craft Catalina 381
Posts: 2,488
Re: All-in-one power station instead of inverter/charger/battery bank?

Why would you need an additional battery bank to run an inverter? I personally don't see the point in having separate house and inverter banks. In my setup, the house, inverter, and windlass all run off one bank (basically everything except engine start).

You could likely do the self contained setup and make it work just fine, but to integrate it nicely with auto transfer between shore/gen and inverter for the inverter sub-panel I don't see it being all that much less work. Plus you have less flexibility in how much battery you install, ability to add charging from other sources (solar, alternator, etc.).

The mentioned 2kwh battery is also fairly small even if you can drain it all the way safely. My house bank isn't all that large by most standards (415ah at 12 volts) and even accounting for not draining beyond 50% that's about 2.5kwh usable. So you'd be looking at running a bigger, more power hungry boat with less battery.
rslifkin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2021, 07:00   #4
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 15,713
Images: 14
Re: All-in-one power station instead of inverter/charger/battery bank?

You're paying a lot for convenience of a all in one portable solution. The 4.5kw with 3kw inverter might cost in separate parts:

$1200 for a pure sine wave inverter and $1200 for the LFP batteries. Add some wiring and switches and suddenly you see the mark up. Also and lets be honest, are they going to use top of the range Winston cells or Victron inverters inside this

However, if the convenience of being able to move it (it's 55kg) perhaps taking it home to charge up ready for the next trip then might be worth considering.

Pete
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2021, 07:11   #5
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lake Ont
Posts: 8,121
Re: All-in-one power station instead of inverter/charger/battery bank?

Interesting development. I've always wondered why no-one offers a branded, packaged system, with batteries, charger, inverter (and maybe even alternator and solar) all designed and rated to work together. Instead of the piecemeal way most of us end up trying to assemble a compatible and efficient DC system.
Lake-Effect is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2021, 08:55   #6
Registered User
 
ranger42c's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 58' Sedan bridge
Posts: 4,729
Re: All-in-one power station instead of inverter/charger/battery bank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Really need to do your consumption mayh, ie the problem, before you can discuss a solution. The 2nd unit you mentioned had a 2000wh batyery. That's about 17amps at 120v for 1 hour.

Agree. Haven't done it yet, need to. I'm still tracking down appliance model numbers and so forth...

In our previous boat, we installed a 2000/70 inverter/charger using an existing battery bank, and it worked fine, had extra capacity, but... that didn't include fridges, which were already AC/DC units.

-Chris
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, USA.
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2021, 09:01   #7
Registered User
 
ranger42c's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 58' Sedan bridge
Posts: 4,729
Re: All-in-one power station instead of inverter/charger/battery bank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
Why would you need an additional battery bank to run an inverter? I personally don't see the point in having separate house and inverter banks. In my setup, the house, inverter, and windlass all run off one bank (basically everything except engine start).

You could likely do the self contained setup and make it work just fine, but to integrate it nicely with auto transfer between shore/gen and inverter for the inverter sub-panel I don't see it being all that much less work. Plus you have less flexibility in how much battery you install, ability to add charging from other sources (solar, alternator, etc.).

The mentioned 2kwh battery is also fairly small even if you can drain it all the way safely.

Like many powerboats, ours is set up with 2 main banks, each one to start each engine and run approx half of the house DC loads. We also have a third bank for thruster, potentially a decent source.

I'm still learning about 24V battery banks, though; not sure I can (and if so how) I could use one of those. I'm also not sure where I could locate an inverter in order to be close enough to an existing bank, not in the engine room, etc. Hence my looking around for potential solutions...

I think that all-in-one system includes an auto transfer switch. In the previous boat, we didn't use/need a sub-panel for the inverter... and the auto transfer worked like a champ.

Agree, small.

-Chris
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, USA.
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2021, 09:03   #8
Registered User
 
ranger42c's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 58' Sedan bridge
Posts: 4,729
Re: All-in-one power station instead of inverter/charger/battery bank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
You're paying a lot for convenience of a all in one portable solution. The 4.5kw with 3kw inverter might cost in separate parts:

$1200 for a pure sine wave inverter and $1200 for the LFP batteries. Add some wiring and switches and suddenly you see the mark up. Also and lets be honest, are they going to use top of the range Winston cells or Victron inverters inside this

However, if the convenience of being able to move it (it's 55kg) perhaps taking it home to charge up ready for the next trip then might be worth considering.

Good points.

Mobility not an attraction, in my case.

-Chris
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, USA.
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2021, 09:14   #9
Registered User

Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 4
Smile Re: All-in-one power station instead of inverter/charger/battery bank?

We have alternately used a Bluetti 2000p (2000) watt hours and then recently an Ecoflow 1000 to power our 26.x MacGregor or our Truck Camper.
The boat needs power to run a 12 v refrigerator, 52q, Mr Coffee, a 600 watt Microwave. The truck camper needs to run all these appliances plus air conditioning.
We found the Ecoflow 1000 has the fastest recharge rate of any packaged solar generator (80% in an hour.) Our 110 Merc engine to a Renology 600 watt inverter and the thing is charged before we can get up coast to fish. No need for solar. The Bluetti, gives you 2000 wh and you can add two of their batteries giving you 8000 wh. It takes forever to charge, no fast charge for this or any other solar generator other than Ecoflow, and needs at least 200 watts of solar panels to crank it up. We use it for the truck camper, where carried inside our F-350ís 110 outlet, it powers everything with an inverter thatís so powerful itís hard to believe.
Both of these companies produce packages that will give you about 24000 wh. I reviewed them on UTube with Hobotech and several other product Ill never go back to gel batteries again for anything but starting the motor.
Attitude1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2021, 09:27   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rochester, NY
Boat: Chris Craft Catalina 381
Posts: 2,488
Re: All-in-one power station instead of inverter/charger/battery bank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
Like many powerboats, ours is set up with 2 main banks, each one to start each engine and run approx half of the house DC loads. We also have a third bank for thruster, potentially a decent source.

I'm still learning about 24V battery banks, though; not sure I can (and if so how) I could use one of those. I'm also not sure where I could locate an inverter in order to be close enough to an existing bank, not in the engine room, etc. Hence my looking around for potential solutions...

I think that all-in-one system includes an auto transfer switch. In the previous boat, we didn't use/need a sub-panel for the inverter... and the auto transfer worked like a champ.

Agree, small.

-Chris
If you've got 3 banks, I'd plan either a lead acid house bank (including AGM) that handles house / thruster / inverter and keep start separate. Or move the thrusters to one of the engine banks to allow a lithium house bank (lithium and the high momentary draw of a thruster don't necessarily play nicely).

If you're looking to simplify further, ditch the generator start battery and put in a switch to select it to either of the engine start batteries (which will become dedicated to starting with no house loads and may also be able to be downsized a little).

As far as the AC/DC fridges on the old boat vs the AC ones on the new boat, they all draw power. Just a question of whether it goes through the inverter or straight from the batteries. Just a question of how much power the fridges use.

My panel setup looks like this currently. Anything labeled L1/Inverter runs through the inverter (and transfer to shore/gen when available through the inverter transfer switch). Inverter input comes off the L1 main. So the plain L1 loads are non-inverter loads and nothing on L2 touches the inverter either.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	PXL_20210922_162231549.jpg
Views:	54
Size:	408.7 KB
ID:	245753  
rslifkin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2021, 10:11   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Wichita/Pensacola
Boat: Lagoon TPI 37'
Posts: 490
Re: All-in-one power station instead of inverter/charger/battery bank?

Price, convenience, size of bank.
The all in one units are somewhat portable and include batteries and inverter/charger. And it can be used/charged other places. Price is about double the piece meal gang.

But needs a power supply to charge it up. Gen/set, motor, solar?

To give perspective from the piece meal gang. One of my banks is 9.6 kW at 12volts or 800Ah. I had to purchase batteries, active balancer, BMS, but had an inverter/charger. Batteries were roughly $1400 for 16 cells of 200Ah each, active balancer $40 and BMS was $150. I did have to purchase materials for battery boxes and wiring- $200. I also had to purchase DC to DC chargers about $300 Roughly $1890 for my battery/inverter/charger system. Plus, I can add and or replace broken parts. Mine is not portable though and needs to be charged from a source on the boat. I did have to do the research and figure out how the Lifepo4's like to be charged and discharged as well as learn about balancing cells.

I do hope someone comes to market with a battery/inverter/charger that isn't so expensive. Luckily, Lifepo4 are coming down in price. I hope this will bring more cost effective all in one units to market.
sailingchiro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2021, 11:27   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Eastern Caribbean for the 2020 season then east coast or Panama
Boat: Lagoon 470 cat
Posts: 587
Re: All-in-one power station instead of inverter/charger/battery bank?

From all I have seen on these they look like an expensive low capacity solution. If you price out the componets Im sure you will find they are not cost competitive. Especially look at their capacity. Even if you are not opening any doors on the appliances I think it might be difficult to find one with enough capacity to run them overnight in any temperate or tropical area.



If you run your generator most hours of the day then you can probably get away with not opening the doors and just turn them off overnight with no problem. Most home style refrigerators/freezers are good for a day or two if the doors are not opened so a "marine" one with good insolation should be no problem being off overnight.
Moontide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2021, 11:59   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Boat: Condor Trimaran 30 foot
Posts: 1,506
Re: All-in-one power station instead of inverter/charger/battery bank?

I think the point can be supported scientifically that you should convert ( over time or demise of AC components) to DC components. There is significant loss of wattage through inverters. You are on the right track with lithium batteries in so many ways.
alansmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2021, 12:06   #14
Registered User
 
ranger42c's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 58' Sedan bridge
Posts: 4,729
Re: All-in-one power station instead of inverter/charger/battery bank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
If you've got 3 banks, I'd plan either a lead acid house bank (including AGM) that handles house / thruster / inverter and keep start separate. Or move the thrusters to one of the engine banks to allow a lithium house bank (lithium and the high momentary draw of a thruster don't necessarily play nicely).

If you're looking to simplify further, ditch the generator start battery and put in a switch to select it to either of the engine start batteries (which will become dedicated to starting with no house loads and may also be able to be downsized a little).

I suspect, but don't know for sure yet, that re-wiring the whole 24V electrical system on the boat would be a lot of work/cost.

And our engines need some significant cranking amps. There's a parallel switch to combine the two 24V start/house banks to start each engine, to address the "oops, I drew it down too much" factor.

I've just been looking at 24VDC-120VAC inverters; some significantly less expensive than I anticipated. The first 2000W/3000W inverter/chargers I looked at, MasterVolt, were in the $1200-$1500 range from Hodges Marine. Which is I suspect reasonable for the product. (MasterVolt simply because our main charger is that brand, and it was the first name that came to mind.)

The genset starter is a single G24 12V battery. Picking up on your point, I could maybe relocate that and beef it up to drive a 12VDC-120VAC inverter. I'll start looking at that, too.

For the audience. I'm wrestling with finding the ratings for our freezer. No visible data plate, but hopefully I won't have to take the whole unit out to find the rating plate on the back side somewhere. Nothing at all like it on the maker's website, even in their legacy models. I know the main fridge and the flybridge models, so I can get consumption details for those. Research on freezer continues.

-Chris
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, USA.
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2021, 12:22   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rochester, NY
Boat: Chris Craft Catalina 381
Posts: 2,488
Re: All-in-one power station instead of inverter/charger/battery bank?

FWIW, that Mastervolt gear is pricey. Even the Victron stuff is a bit cheaper than the prices you mentioned. I think my 2000W Victron inverter was about $1100.

If you've got 24v stuff already, what about going to a single engine start bank (and a switch to start from house in an emergency), leave the separate 12v gen start battery, then build a 24v house bank? Is the thruster 12v or 24v?
rslifkin is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
battery, inverter, charger

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ď08 Xantrex Invert/Charger w/LiFePo4 Drennan Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 3 15-09-2021 19:27
Upgrading a 2-bank charger to a 1-bank charger/inverter RodrigoDC Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 17 03-05-2021 05:29
Lithium solar power station instead of diesel genset tandersonmd Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 16 28-03-2021 16:24
How to re-invert falsely inverted photos?? ErikFinn Forum Tech Support & Site Help 17 15-01-2017 09:19

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:18.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.