Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-12-2019, 05:47   #76
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 5,607
Re: AGM batteries, PSOC and sulphation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Just to be clear, the current Sterling B2B’s need a battery bank connected on both the input and output sides. You cannot connect one directly to a charge source. Charles is working on an optional device that will allow a quasi-direct connection to a charge source, without a battery on the input, but so far we don’t even have a prototype...
THANK YOU! Certainly how your description & wiring diagrams on your website looked to me, but I'm sure I also garbled up some of the terminology in attempting to clarify. I disagree with John that it's a mere problem over semantics. Commonly accepted definitions are important when attempting to communicate technical information, most especially to and amongst non-technical laymen. Sorry for my role in prolonging any confusion.
Exile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 05:59   #77
Moderator Emeritus
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Jacksonville/ out cruising
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 31,351
Re: AGM batteries, PSOC and sulphation

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
I take it the original subject is over


Yes, but that’s fine, threads often drift, if they don’t, then they just die.
So they take side tracks and sometimes get back on track, or if the side track is more interesting they go that way.
Maybe the answer to the original question is that no one knows?
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 06:24   #78
CLOD
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: being planted in Jacksonville Fl
Boat: none
Posts: 20,364
Re: AGM batteries, PSOC and sulphation

I know, just wanted to know if I could stop following far as the original question and now I know
__________________
Don't ask a bunch of unknown forum people if it is OK to do something on YOUR boat. It is your boat, do what you want!
sailorboy1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 07:09   #79
Moderator Emeritus
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Jacksonville/ out cruising
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 31,351
AGM batteries, PSOC and sulphation

I don’t know, I had hoped when I saw Maine Sail that he would shed some light on it, I figure if anyone knows, he does.
Maybe it’s an unknown?
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 11:25   #80
Registered User
 
daletournier's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 4,578
Re: AGM batteries, PSOC and sulphation

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
From a private conversation that I had with I believe Justin Godber at Concorde, I was told to expect 5 years out of my bank if I fully 100% charged them twice a week and mostly got there the other five days, if I condition charged then monthly. Conditioning is what Lifeline calls what is otherwise known as equalizing.
That plan was based on making water twice a week, which for me means running a generator, and that of course would get me to 100%.
That was a pre cruising plan.

Since then I’ve discovered it’s not hard for me to get them to 100% charged every day with a 30 min generator run in the morning, in Winter in the Bahamas.
I have seen significant recovery from a Conditioning charge, what I have is dual amp counting battery monitors one Magnum and now one Outback. Both are needed to ensure both charge sources drop to float when my acceptance at absorption voltage hits .5% of rated capacity.

Anyway I have the amp counters set for my bank being a 630AH bank, when in the morning I wake up and the Smart Gauge indicates a percent SOC that is 5% or more less than the amp counters I do a Conditioning charge, late in the afternoon when my bank is 100% charged, I don’t let it rest, cause on the hook, I can’t.

I base that on the assumption that the Smart Gauge is the correct SOC, the amp counters are a calculated number and not actual SOC.

This year I won’t be surprised if I have to set the amp counters to 600 AH, assuming I will have lost 10% capacity over the last four years.
It’s a 660 AH bank

I have had two serious events to the bank, once when new I set the charger to condition voltage and left, and came back five days later to find it still at Conditioning voltage. The bank was room temp and was accepting I think .2 amp charge, but it couldn’t have been good for it.

Then I came back to the boat one weekend to find the marina’s pedestal circuit breaker had failed and my bank had run down until it was below the fridges operating voltage. That also couldn’t have been good for it, but since cruising I can watch it every day of course and we have had no such events.
This is my problem with expensive gels etc, everything's good unless something goes wrong.

Over the years I've had a Balmar smart reg self destruct and start pumping 16v+ into the bank and I've had solar regs screw up also over charging, at the moment I have one under charging, meaning it's gone back to default and the best I get out of it is 14.2v.

The above is why I stick to basic 6v golf carts, they can take a kicking and keep on going ,this is important to me.
daletournier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 11:28   #81
Registered User
 
daletournier's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 4,578
Re: AGM batteries, PSOC and sulphation

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Of course there are multiple factors involved in early end of life, including failing to correctly drop to Float.

PSOC just happens to be the one being discussed here.

Many cruisers do not use their motor so many hours at a time,

some don't even feed House bank from alternators,

and it can take more than a few hours to even get to Absorb stage anyway.

But yes, whenever alternators are discussed here as a charge source, converting to a three-stage VR like Balmar MC-614 is always recommended.

But the fact remains, even where plentiful energy inputs are readily available, chronic PSOC is **very** common, simply from charge sources not being adjusted to hold Absorb time long enough.

Absorb holding too long, and thus overcharging is indeed a problem, but much less frequently.

Some owners will suffer from both,

all depends on the context.
Yes it depends on context ie. what sort of cruising one does.

Exile used Sailing legend as an example regarding getting decade out if his batteries, if I remember rightly he pulled into a marina at least once a week and hooked up, many very rarely go to a marina, this changes things.
daletournier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 11:33   #82
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
Re: AGM batteries, PSOC and sulphation

Absolutely, too many are conditioned to only consider all the variables from the POV of their own use case.

Nearly any generalization will be untrue in certain circumstances.
john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 14:33   #83
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: On board in Leros, Greece
Boat: Hunter Legend 420 Passage
Posts: 863
Re: AGM batteries, PSOC and sulphation

It's timed I stepped in after deciding never to post again on these forums because they often descend into unnecessary arguments or thread drifts and often show a sad lack of understanding of the subject. That is why I approached a64pilot (see post #1) and asked him to further clarify his posting from another thread where he stated:

"Many batteries are fine with only getting to full every now and again and don’t suffer from getting close other times, but not AGM’s, that’s their Achilles heel."

I'm not sure if this thread has clarified that statement?

I have today had a response from Justin Godber from Lifeline who I have had extensive dialogues with so I add a quote from him at the end.

But let me first explain in detail my understanding of sulfation. I welcome any comments or clarifications.

‘Permanent sulfation’ is probably the main reason most batteries die prematurely. It happens when batteries are left in a partial state of charge and aren’t 100% fully charged soon after they have been discharged. It’s important to understand exactly what fully charged really means because running an engine or generator for just an hour or two a day will never be enough to get back to 100%. It’s also important to understand that when a charger drops to Float that doesn’t mean the batteries are fully charged.

‘Temporary sulfation’ is the by-product of the normal chemical reactions during discharge and causes deposits of Lead Sulfate crystals to form on the lead plates. This is a very complex subject, but a very simplified explanation of the discharging process can best be shown in this formula. Note that the value of the elements Pb, O2, H2, and SO4 balance on each side of the equation.

PbO2 + Pb + 2H2SO4 = (discharge-----><-----charge) = 2PbSO4 + 2H2O

Put in plain English - during discharge:

The Lead (Pb), lead oxide (PbO2) and the hydrochloric acid (2H2SO4) convert to lead sulphate crystals (2PbSO4) and water (2H2O) which dilutes the hydrochloric acid and so lowers the specific gravity (SG).

During a ‘full charge’ the reverse happens:

Lead sulfate (2PbSO4 ) and the water (2H2O ) convert back to lead oxide and sulphuric acid, so the specific gravity of the sulphuric acid returns to its original level. This is why SG can be used to determine when a battery is fully charged.

But if the batteries are not fully re-charged there will be some lead sulphate crystals left on the plates! Fully recharging normally removes these crystals but if they have grown too large and hardened over time recharging cannot remove them. Lead Sulfate crystals that can’t be removed will cause Permanent Sulfation which reduces the battery’s active material and hence permanently reduces the available Ah capacity of the battery.

The advice from all battery manufacturers is to never leave batteries in a partial state (PSOC) but recharge as soon as possible. Today Justin Godber from Lifeline has confirmed to me that AGMs and Lead Acid batteries are essentially the same construction, except the electrolyte is not in a liquid form. He has also pointed out that not all AGMs are created equal and not made to the same standards so can't be equalised.

"I can speak for all battery manufacturers when I say batteries should be fully charged right away once the discharge is completed regardless of the SOC that the particular customer wants to discharge them to. This is the only way to prevent sulfation from hardening. Lead Sulfate is a natural occurrence in all AGM, GEL and FLA. For some consumers this sounds like a pain but the reality is it’s simple. Discharge the batteries, recharge the batteries and put back everything you took out. That is the best way to get the batteries to last. If you can’t do this everytime you will need to equalize and essentially convert that sulfation back into active material." Justin Godber - Lifeline

I have tried to follow his advice with my AGMs but have often left them partially discharged for 1-2 weeks before getting them back to 100% with overnight shorepower. I have also equalised them occasionally and they lasted me 14 years as a full time live aboard in the Mediterranean. I did have a very large bank so I only discharged to about 75% and I could let their Ah capacity fall to 55% before renewing them. Lifeline recommend renewing them at 50%. This is another reason why they are such good value for money.
sailinglegend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 15:51   #84
CLOD
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: being planted in Jacksonville Fl
Boat: none
Posts: 20,364
Re: AGM batteries, PSOC and sulphation

So did the guy from Lifeline answer the question of

Do AGM suffer more from partial charge than FLA “wet” cells?
__________________
Don't ask a bunch of unknown forum people if it is OK to do something on YOUR boat. It is your boat, do what you want!
sailorboy1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2019, 02:09   #85
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: On board in Leros, Greece
Boat: Hunter Legend 420 Passage
Posts: 863
Re: AGM batteries, PSOC and sulphation

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
So did the guy from Lifeline answer the question of

Do AGM suffer more from partial charge than FLA “wet” cells?
I asked him for a simple quote - sorry it didn't satisfy you.

Here's more from Justin that applies to a lot of posters on theses forums:

"Some people want an education but never tend to listen to what we are actually saying and sometimes our helpful advice to help people get their batteries to last longer actually turns into an argument as they tend not to believe us. I do not ever claim to know everything but I will say I am 4th generation here in our battery company and I have worked here for 25 years. We are still family owned and operated. I might not know everything but I DO know batteries. Our technical advice is not always what someone wants to hear but it is truthful and factual and we are simply trying to help educate people so they can get the most out of their batteries."


...and
"Our batteries hold up well to PSOC providing you take the necessary precautions and equalize as recommended. If you don’t they will suffer as will a FLA."

...Gels for a64pilot
"GEL batteries I am also very knowledgeable about as we used to build them a long time ago. It is a good technology but they tend to be easily (and most the time accidentally) ruined by the owner and unfortunately there is no way to recover them once they get sulfated and/or get too many air bubbles inside. Once this happens there is nothing you can do except live with the lower capacity until it is time to replace. At least with our batteries you do have an option to recover them. Not all AGM’s can be equalized as most of them are made cheaply with through the partition welds and very small intercell connections. They just can't handle the extra voltage."
sailinglegend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2019, 03:38   #86
Registered User
 
daletournier's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Australia
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 4,578
Re: AGM batteries, PSOC and sulphation

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend View Post
I asked him for a simple quote - sorry it didn't satisfy you.

Here's more from Justin that applies to a lot of posters on theses forums:

"Some people want an education but never tend to listen to what we are actually saying and sometimes our helpful advice to help people get their batteries to last longer actually turns into an argument as they tend not to believe us. I do not ever claim to know everything but I will say I am 4th generation here in our battery company and I have worked here for 25 years. We are still family owned and operated. I might not know everything but I DO know batteries. Our technical advice is not always what someone wants to hear but it is truthful and factual and we are simply trying to help educate people so they can get the most out of their batteries."


...and
"Our batteries hold up well to PSOC providing you take the necessary precautions and equalize as recommended. If you don’t they will suffer as will a FLA."

...Gels for a64pilot
"GEL batteries I am also very knowledgeable about as we used to build them a long time ago. It is a good technology but they tend to be easily (and most the time accidentally) ruined by the owner and unfortunately there is no way to recover them once they get sulfated and/or get too many air bubbles inside. Once this happens there is nothing you can do except live with the lower capacity until it is time to replace. At least with our batteries you do have an option to recover them. Not all AGM’s can be equalized as most of them are made cheaply with through the partition welds and very small intercell connections. They just can't handle the extra voltage."
Simple and clear, thanks.
daletournier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2019, 04:30   #87
CLOD
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: being planted in Jacksonville Fl
Boat: none
Posts: 20,364
Re: AGM batteries, PSOC and sulphation

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend View Post
I asked him for a simple quote - sorry it didn't satisfy you.
I]
Sorry. I read the post on my tablet without my glasses and missed key part.

So Lifeline says that AGMs DO suffer more from partial recharges.

With that answered the missing part would be “to what relative degree compared to other battery types”. I can easily believe that just because AGMs suffer more, that in real boater abuse life that it doesn’t really matter.
__________________
Don't ask a bunch of unknown forum people if it is OK to do something on YOUR boat. It is your boat, do what you want!
sailorboy1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2019, 04:55   #88
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,764
Re: AGM batteries, PSOC and sulphation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Just to be clear, the current Sterling B2B’s need a battery bank connected on both the input and output sides. You cannot connect one directly to a charge source. . .
As anyone who has even read the Sterling catalogue would know, saving several pages of pointless argument and misinformation


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Charles is working on an optional device that will allow a quasi-direct connection to a charge source, without a battery on the input, but so far we don’t even have a prototype...
But even your info is not entirely up to date -- Charles has been shipping DC-DC chargers made for direct connection to the alternator for several years already, at least over here in Europe:

https://sterling-power.com/collectio...ttery-chargers
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2019, 05:10   #89
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 18,423
Images: 22
Re: AGM batteries, PSOC and sulphation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
As anyone who has even read the Sterling catalogue would know, saving several pages of pointless argument and misinformation
Yes, but were would the fun be in that we would have to go back to discussing anchors with the likes of Craig Smith
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2019, 05:11   #90
Registered User
 
ranger58sb's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 58' Sedan Bridge
Posts: 5,420
Re: AGM batteries, PSOC and sulphation

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Sorry. I read the post on my tablet without my glasses and missed key part.

So Lifeline says that AGMs DO suffer more from partial recharges.

I don't see where Justin said "more"...

???

-Chris
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, USA.
ranger58sb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
agm, batteries, grass

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
PSOC definition evm1024 Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 116 20-09-2018 15:09
Gel batteries tolerate rate PSOC? witzgall Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 5 11-02-2016 18:48
Link 10 and AGM batteries bazzer Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 3 08-05-2011 18:34
AGM Batteries and Battery Box Steve Kidson Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 14 18-05-2010 06:30
Compare Glass Mat and AGM Batteries Extemporaneous Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 28 18-03-2009 18:34

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:56.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.