Add second large alternator to charge house batteries

[a64pilot]

Anyone who has ever overhauled an engine, not just a Marine engine, but most any engine can tell you that there is a huge difference between the crankshaft bearing that the flywheel, or propellor is connected to the engine and the one on the other end, usually the front of the engine.

[Maine Sail]

Integrel Solutions is not misleading anyone. They are fully transparent that the system exceeds the engine manufacturers limits. This is why they provide a Lloyds insurance policy for an Integrel system.

That said, the grant money thrown at the testing for this system, and the near unlimited amount of lab testing that was able to be done for this system, is really quite staggering. I honestly wish more folks could sit though an Integrel training class, the amount of data is simply amazing.

We inform customers all the time, who want big alternators, of the engine alternator limits, and not a single one of them has cared.

Heck Beta has custom installed our CMI-ED200-ER on their engines in addition to the stock alternator. Also, twin Balmar XT170's factory installed on a Beta for 340A of alternators.



While Yanmar publishes these limits they will also gladly sell you a second alternator kit which makes a total of 250A of alternators on a single Yanmar engine. We had a customer burn both of the stock internally regulated Valeo 125A alternators up charging LFP batteries. You can't even get stators for these alternators, or the replacement parts, so he wound up with ER alternators & temp protection instead.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

It pretty much boils down one of a couple of things.

1. Yanmar intentionally, and with little to no engineering studies publishes an incorrect limit for their engines, one that if anything hurts their marketability.

2. People who sell products that exceed Yanmar’s published limits and do so by a large margin are simply smarter and more knowledgeable than Yanmar.

I think it is far more likely that they don't know and chose the published limits conservatively.


Engineering is expensive. Testing engines is even more expensive. You would have to run a dozen engines for 10,000 hours each in a test jig to get a reasonable level of confidence that they would support a particular load, and even then there might be surprises that only show up in field conditions. You could set up a jig that turns the crank with an electric motor and maybe make it a little cheaper but still an expensive test.



The portion of the market that cares about large alternators is small.

[darrelweb]

I was the #26 responce...
I stayed with the regular stock engine V belt, but put a V belt on that was cogged on the underside of the belt. Boat had 8 each 6 volt, golf cart batteries, flooded.

Install showed no abnormal belt wear. Boat was in Mexico and has since early this year, it was sold.

Darrel

[Augi]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

In order to make it easier for people, here is the post with the link. Page 18. I believe the conversion puts max draw about 3 HP at 1800 and we know that it takes about 1 HP to make 25 amps, then you can put a 75 amp draw on that motor at 1800 RPM.
Here is a link to a KW to HP conversion https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/kw-to-hp.html

This link tells how many hp per amps are required and there are many sources of this, Balmar is one.
https://alternatorparts.com/how-much...ator-make.html

Thanks for the input. I did not ignore your comments. In combination with your comments and comments of others I have ruled out installing a second alternator. If I change anything in regards to the alternator set up, I will only install larger alternators per Yanmar. First step will be to install the extra solar and 1000AH of lithium batteries and see if bigger alternators are needed or a genset. I don't think either will be needed. If a genset is needed I would go with the smallest genset Northern Lights offers if not for the weight. For my limited use I think one of the higher rpm, lighter, less robust models will work. Could be Onan, Whisper Power, or NextGen. I will carry a honda portable as back up and a good result will be I never use on the boat.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I think it is far more likely that they don't know and chose the published limits conservatively.


Engineering is expensive. Testing engines is even more expensive. You would have to run a dozen engines for 10,000 hours each in a test jig to get a reasonable level of confidence that they would support a particular load, and even then there might be surprises that only show up in field conditions. You could set up a jig that turns the crank with an electric motor and maybe make it a little cheaper but still an expensive test.



The portion of the market that cares about large alternators is small.

It’s really not, and while engines may have been tested that way back in the 50’s they usually aren’t anymore, it’s done with software, which is not inexpensive, but an actual company that manufacturers engines most likely has a lot of money tied up into design software, it’s how combustion chambers etc are designed now. Tests are conducted to validate the software sometimes until until a level of trust is built up in the software.

So far as being a small market, just about any cruising boat wants to increase their charging output.

To actually publish graphs etc means there was testing or design work to determine limits, you don’t publish graphs that you just draw out on a piece of paper.
Bearing limits are well known by engine manufacturers, they know exactly how much bearing a xx HP engine needs etc. they don’t need to test that. Like piston speed, that is well known for each type of aluminum alloy, or where the valves will float at what spring tension if acceleration profile and valve weight are known. They don’t need to float the valves on 50 engines to determine spring tension.
Piston engines are not rocket science anymore, far from it, their limitations have been known for a long time.
Even large aircraft design is pretty well a solved problem, there was never a prototype Boeing 787 for instance, the first one was a production airplane, it was all software derived.


But again, an engine manufacturer has published limitations that many don’t like so they choose to ignore them, and that’s fine, it’s their engine, but to say that Volvo and Yanmar don’t know what they are doing is well, pretty uninformed about how engines are designed.
Beta isn’t an engine manufacturer are they? Engine manufacturers most often do not share their design software, they will sometimes if given a operational profile if your a big enough customer run that date through their proprietary software to determine an expected life etc if asked and data is given, I have had Pratt & Whitney Canada do that for their -67F engine for me as we built an airplane that was using the engine in a manner not consistent with its design.
Pratt gave me the data, I passed it onto the customer who didn’t like what it said so they ignored it too.

But it’s pretty obvious that these engines are not designed to have a lot of power taken off of the front of the crankshaft, it’s obvious from the engine crankshaft bearing size, and of course the published limitations.

So far as ensuring customers are informed that these systems far exceed engine limitations, invalidate warranty etc, I’ve not seen that in any sales literature, has anyone else? If you order a system from Defender or wherever, are you told about it? I think not. I’d expect some kind of language buried deep in some paperwork somewhere, but I never was told was anyone?

Now I have not of course read all the sales literature, but I suspect that if it were common knowledge and people were being informed, there would have been some discussion.

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

But if ever there was a use case for a robust, low rpm generator, this is it.

Amen to that! No free lunch!

[spiv]

Just to add fuel to the discussion.... here is Nigel Calder article on Hi-Output alternators.
The file is over the max 2MB (3.1MB) allowed as an attachment, so I saved it to Google drive.
Let me know if you cannot download it.

[Rudy S]

I have the yanmar 3YM30AE engines installed. Standard with 120A alternators and serpetine belts. Is that set fitting on a Yamar 3ym30?
Also have a catamaran, installed two external regulators on the alternators gives a lot of amps.

[tomcone]

A point everyone seems to be missing is that he said that he will be running air conditioning from his batteries. So either he has a DC compressor or he has a very large inverter. So, this guy just wants a lot of DC supply, and a generator is a roundabout way of getting there. Why not a diesel-alternator package like https://www.polarpower.com/wp-conten...8080VP-13.pdf? They are much smaller, less expensive, lighter and more efficient in generating DC than an AC generator.

[Augi]

Originally Posted by tomcone

A point everyone seems to be missing is that he said that he will be running air conditioning from his batteries. So either he has a DC compressor or he has a very large inverter. So, this guy just wants a lot of DC supply, and a generator is a roundabout way of getting there. Why not a diesel-alternator package like https://www.polarpower.com/wp-conten...8080VP-13.pdf? They are much smaller, less expensive, lighter and more efficient in generating DC than an AC generator.

Thanks for the input. I am looking at Polar diesel generators.

[Augi]

Originally Posted by Rudy S

I have the yanmar 3YM30AE engines installed. Standard with 120A alternators and serpetine belts. Is that set fitting on a Yamar 3ym30?
Also have a catamaran, installed two external regulators on the alternators gives a lot of amps.

Thanks for the input. I am going to look into a similar set up as you have.

[Leighpilot]

Do you need more charging capacity ?

Can you reduce your demand with more energy efficient devices ?

My only really useful comment would be not to plan on charging using diesels at low load/rpm. That’s not good for them.

[Augi]

Originally Posted by spiv

Just to add fuel to the discussion.... here is Nigel Calder article on Hi-Output alternators.
The file is over the max 2MB (3.1MB) allowed as an attachment, so I saved it to Google drive.
Let me know if you cannot download it.

Thanks for providing Nigel Caldor's take. I am reading now.

[parkstone bay]

As a little MB owner, I'm bothered by the basic premise of this thread. The OP asked for comments/advice about charging house batteries. BUT, I suggest, whatever boating you do, (bimble into a creek somewhere; real blue-water stuff ("we'll tack tomorrow". "Ok, Skipper, will that be before or after lunch?"); anything at all) if you can't start your engine you are in the poo. How deep depends on the circumstances. So, on this basis, the STARTER battery is the higher priority.