ACR and Pronautica 12-40p

[Char99]

Yes I have 2 house banks with 4 6 volt batteries total They are Bank 1 and Bank2 each has 2 6v batts. The only thing the ACR does is split up the output of the engine Alternator to the 2 house banks and the starting battery.

I have decided that I will connect the output of the charger to the output terminals of the ACR since there are 6 gauge wire runs from the ACR to the respective Battery banks. Seems redundant to run more wires. I have placed the 12-40P next to the ACR and have ordered 3 fuse blocks and 50 amp fuses as recommended in the installation manual. When the engine is running the charger just sits there and when we plug into shore power the 12-40P comes to life. It is smart enough to charge the batteries that need it.

Thanks to every one for helping me out. Next year it will be asking about Solar I am sure, Oh need to build the hard bimini to mount the panels. Better do some sailing and cruising this summer and leave that for next year.

Char

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by john61ct

One large house bank is much better, especially with lead but also LFP.

Shallower discharges means much longer bank life

And you get much more actually usable Ah from a 400Ah bank than you do from 2x 200, read up on Peukert!

Redundancy is indeed critical for some use cases, but get it any number of other ways;

only needed for Essentials, not your screens / stereo entertainment and electrified galley.

Peukert? 2x 200AHs = 400AHs, or not?

Yes I obviously dont understand. If you can set me straight Id appreciate it.

Also while your educating me if you can tell me what I am overlooking re redundancy. I thought with 2 x200AH setup if one went bad you could turn it off and you'd still have half left. How is you other ways to have redundancy with a single 400AH bank? So much I need to learn.

Thanks

[john61ct]

I've already stated the benefits, yes Peukert means greater total capacity, Ah are not simple but actual usable varies inversely with C rate, do some googling and educate yourself.

And I've written many times about a Reserve bank **for Essential** loads only supplanting dedicated Starters many times.

Even a subset of an expanded single House bank can be used that way with adjustable LCD.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I've already stated the benefits, yes Peukert means greater total capacity, Ah are not simple but actual usable varies inversely with C rate, do some googling and educate yourself.

And I've written many times about a Reserve bank **for Essential** loads only supplanting dedicated Starters many times.

Even a subset of an expanded single House bank can be used that way with adjustable LCD.

John Im well aware of Peukert effect. If you can get off your righteous high horse for a minute. I agree with what you are saying if you are referring to a one On and the other Off scenerio. That is only one example.

Talking about circular, I did state in my post that it depended on how a system was used. If for example you used a twin house bank mostly in parallel and one bank switched Off when there was a problem etc. Then as I said Peukert has nothing to do with anything.

However with your 400AH single bank, if for example one of cells/ leads/ terminals goes out then the redundancy factor is nada.

You cant have your reserve capacity cake and eat your maximisation of total capacity too.

Nevermind.

[john61ct]

Yes you can. But maybe another time

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Char99

Yes I have 2 house banks with 4 6 volt batteries total They are Bank 1 and Bank2 each has 2 6v batts. The only thing the ACR does is split up the output of the engine Alternator to the 2 house banks and the starting battery.

This is where using the correct terminology is important.. An ACR is a Blue Sea product and it does not sit in the output path of an alternator, it sits between two batteries.

It sounds as if you have either a FET or diode isolator or a ProIso or ProSplit-R type unit. What is the model and make of your alternator splitter?

[john61ct]

Pretty sure OP did at least mean a VSR/combiner if not a BSS version ACR.

Just mistakenly thought they only need one to take care of more than two banks.

Many use ACR as equivalently to the generic terms VSR or combiner.

Also many view the starter, primary battery and alternator as a single entity, iow one side of the VSR, the other usually being the circuit containing just a single House bank.

I completely agree loose language usage can cause confusion.

[smac999]

Originally Posted by Char99

Yes I have 2 house banks with 4 6 volt batteries total They are Bank 1 and Bank2 each has 2 6v batts. The only thing the ACR does is split up the output of the engine Alternator to the 2 house banks and the starting battery.

Sounds like a battery isolator. Not an acr.

[Char99]

Lets forget the Sure Power Marine Isolator model 702.
I have installed the Pronautica 12-40P Connected the three output to 1)Start Battery 2)Bank 2 and 3)Bank 3. No ACR involved at all. When I power it up it puts out 29 Amps as measured on the return leg then drops to 15 or so from Negative buss and shows the Conditioning led. After about 3/4 hour it switched to Auto maintain. If I power it down and restart it goes to Conditioning for another 20-40 minuets. After a hour I measured the Specific Gravity and it was just at the bottom of the white on one bank and near the bottom of the red on the other battery. Does not seem that they are fully charged. The light on the display never goes to say Charging. These batteries are less than a year old Deep Cycle GC type
I just had a thought the Starting Battery is Sealed not like the others, that might be problem since the charger is set to flooded.
I know I need a Monitor to get the full picture.

[rbk]

In your above scenario (with no ARC or other means) how is your alternator charging the three banks? How are they being discharged? Battery selector switch(s)? Just trying to get the whole picture.

Yes on the different battery compositions though. An Echo or duo charger maybe in your future.

[Char99]

I am not charging any thing with the Alternator yet. just have the 3 batteries connected to the charger. Not going anywhere until all is finished. I have fuse blocks and fuses on the way to finish the installation. I will have to either get a new wet battery or a small separate charger for the starting battery. I think the simple thing is to get a flooded battery for the starter. It is on a separate circuit from the house batteries they have an A/B type switch.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Char99

Lets forget the Sure Power Marine Isolator model 702.
I have installed the Pronautica 12-40P Connected the three output to 1)Start Battery 2)Bank 2 and 3)Bank 3. No ACR involved at all. When I power it up it puts out 29 Amps as measured on the return leg then drops to 15 or so from Negative buss and shows the Conditioning led. After about 3/4 hour it switched to Auto maintain. If I power it down and restart it goes to Conditioning for another 20-40 minuets. After a hour I measured the Specific Gravity and it was just at the bottom of the white on one bank and near the bottom of the red on the other battery. Does not seem that they are fully charged. The light on the display never goes to say Charging. These batteries are less than a year old Deep Cycle GC type
I just had a thought the Starting Battery is Sealed not like the others, that might be problem since the charger is set to flooded.
I know I need a Monitor to get the full picture.

This type of behavior is indicative of your batteries being sulfated and attaining target voltage rapidly due to sulfation. The diode isolator, and its resulting voltage drop between alt and batteries, may be to blame due to chronic under charging.

[john61ct]

> Sure Power Marine Isolator model 702

Is this what you were calling an ACR (proper generic term VSR) ?

If so, that has caused a lot of confusion and wasted a lot of time.

Isolators used to be used for similar functionality to VSRs, but the traditional diode based ones usually caused too much voltage drop.

That would cause failure to (ever) get to 100% Full.

Please post a list of the specific model hardware of the relevant gear in your setup. Maybe I missed it, what are your GCs?

Aside from all the design issues, you may well need to load test your bank, or at least confirm (adjust) your setup to ensure it is getting to 100% Full as many cycles as possible, ideally most of them.

[Char99]

The diagram #2 describes my set up. The charger leads are connected to the Pos battery terminals.
I am very sorry for the confusion I caused by my lack of understanding the acronym "ACR"
https://allbatterysalesandservice.co..._Isolators.pdf

I just need the fuses to complete the setup.
Thank You all.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

...However with your 400AH single bank, if for example one of cells/ leads/ terminals goes out then the redundancy factor is nada...

Kidding aside, what is more likely to happen:

1) some random catastrophic failure in a solo house bank rendering it completely unable to have a same-voltage (albeit smaller capacity) battery to be cobbled together

2) some error in switching coupled battery depletion rendering the boat incapable of starting/charging

I suspect that #2 is more likely. An analogy that I think is instructive:

In the 1950s small twin-engined planes entered the consumer market, sold as offering redundancy/increased safety over single-engined planes. Long story short, time has proven that, all things considered, the twin is just as likely to kill you as the single-engine plane is. The "redundancy" of a reserve engine is basically useless, but is very costly to buy and more complicated to operate.

From my amateur perspective, for pleasure craft operated by normal humans, the dual/reserve system with switches is analagous to a twin-engined plane. In theory it offers redundancy, in practice operator error is just as likely to result in a catastrophic failure as an 'all eggs in one main house bank' approach. If not for electrical enthusiast who enjoy promoting switches and circular logic, or salesman of switches, I'm thinking that the dual-house bank would go the way of the twin-engined plane....only useful for very select purposes to be used by people with truly exceptional operational practices.

The alternative is one large house bank, preferable of multiple cells that can be cobbled together for same voltage at decreased capacity if a cell fails, with the start battery fed off an echo charger off the house bus. Or just keep all the switches, ACR, and nuclear reactor needed to power all the weekly internet discussions on dual bank/switch/ACR systems.