80A Alternator and 'drop in' LFP?

[swampbush]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Sorry that wasn't clear.

https://www.sterling-power-usa.com/b...ychargers.aspx

The BB series ones are the subset that offer adjustable voltage setpoints.

Or more than one, depends how fast you want/need to recharge. Many believe over .5C is "too fast" and will reduce longevity, even say limit to a .3C rate, 100A and 60A respectively.

Depends on the cells, BMS, wiring and of course upstream power available.

Start with two 60A for redundancy, see how you go, they're used to shipping to remote places.

> I assume BB's are one directional in their charging direction?
Yes. Since Starter needs next to nothing, that rarely needs to be the target side.

No VSR needed.



> Would the BB's need to be 20A each to the LFP due to the fact my battery charger is 40A (2x20A BB's)?

The upstream source can be 400A, but a 60A B2B will only pass 60A or less. Can derate if needed.


> Generators do fail...

Yes they do. This concept lets any old DC source feed your bank no matter how primitive.

Note Redarc, Projecta, CTEK other brands of DCDC chargers widely used by patriotic Aussies, do not allow for Sterling's user-custom voltage setpoints.

Contact Sterling for support and dealer reco. Do not buy just on price, strive to build a relationship with a dealer that will take the time to support you, or buy direct from the UK.

Enerdrive dcdc chargers are very adjustable and designed for LiFePO4 and seem reasonbly priced in Australia. I haven't used them but will if I need them after I change to LiFePO4.

http://www.enerdrive.com.au/product/...rger-40a-plus/

[Scrimma]

Originally Posted by swampbush

Enerdrive dcdc chargers are very adjustable and designed for LiFePO4 and seem reasonbly priced in Australia. I haven't used them but will if I need them after I change to LiFePO4.

12V 40A DC2DC+ Battery Charger - Enerdrive Pty Ltd

O like the idea of using Aussie if I can. My only concern is they seem to max out at 40A?

[tanglewood]

Won’t a B2B charger set up as you describe draw down the start battery once your engine is off, and you use you house bank?

And what does the B2B charger cost vs a smart regulator for the alternator? I think both accomplish the goal, and the regulator will work with any size alternator upgrade that you might do down the road, and at no additional cost.

Just stuff to consider

[CapnBazza]

Originally Posted by Scrimma

Hi all,

My new to me boat has 520ah fullriver AGM house battery capacity. These batteries are on their last legs and me thinks it's a great time to throw some LFP in instead. I'd like approx 400ah of Lithium at most.

Currently my 39hp yanmar has a 80A alternator on it. I've read that lithium will suck whatever an alternator can throw at it, in this case 80A. I also heard that alternators below 100A are made to run at 100% cycle and won't overheat and burn out like alternators over 100A. I can't for the life of me remember where i read/heard that recently, but I remember it being a fairly reputable source (in my limited opinion of the topic).

I have approx 660w of new sunpower panels that easily ram in 40+ amps when the sun pops out. Heck they were putting in 10amps in a rain storm yesterday which i was pretty pleased with. So I don't imagine i'll need to run the engine much to charge (especially with LFP) and I would probably run the little 1000w Generator instead unless I was motoring early in the morning etc leaving anchorages etc.

My question is, how 'DROP IN' are lithiums these days really? And will my alternator need regulating to say 60A to avoid overheating? How would I go about regulating that?

I have a AGM start battery and a VSR. I've changed the charging cable from the alternator to run directly to the house batteries instead of to the start battery and then through the VSR to speed up charging of the house. Will that cabling need changing? I think...that if my alternator is ok as it is, then unless i'm missing something (high chance of that) then I can drop in some LFP batteries (2x200ah approx) exactly where the AGM's are and plug and play...? Of course i'll get batteries with their own built in BMS to manage cells individually in each bank, but is there anything else to help this swap over go as smoothly as possible?

Oh and I do have a 240v Xantrex Truecharger 2 for generator plug in or shore power which doesn't have lithium charging algorithms so that will need to change too. Any tips on decent budget item for that? I currently use the Victron Smart Solar 100/50 MPPT and the Victron BMV-712 battery monitor, so I'm thinking something victron might make the most sense. I don't want a charger/inverter as I have a seperate 1000w inverter setup already for the rare times I need it.

I'm sorry if this all came across muddled.
This forum has been ridiculously helpful for my other projects.
Thank you in advance!
Scrimma

My boat has had a pair of these “mythical” drop in batteries for nearly three years now. So far so good, 13.2 volts when I wake up is really nice.

[Scrimma]

Originally Posted by CapnBazza

My boat has had a pair of these “mythical” drop in batteries for nearly three years now. So far so good, 13.2 volts when I wake up is really nice.

Nice! So what did you do for changing charging set up so you wouldn't get your alternator?

[Scrimma]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Won’t a B2B charger set up as you describe draw down the start battery once your engine is off, and you use you house bank?

And what does the B2B charger cost vs a smart regulator for the alternator? I think both accomplish the goal, and the regulator will work with any size alternator upgrade that you might do down the road, and at no additional cost.

Just stuff to consider

Thanks for the tip. Although I would assume these B2B would only be flowing current and in one direction when under power when the engine is running? I'm no electric wiz, and not sure how that would work, but seems like something that would be in place in these expensive electronics?

[CapnBazza]

Originally Posted by Scrimma

Nice! So what did you do for changing charging set up so you wouldn't get your alternator?

I have an 80 amp alternator on my 22hp Diecon Kubota diesel. I had to tighten the single belt a bit to stop it squealing because the batteries are greedy in the morning. I made no other changes. My solar panels have the batteries back to full by lunchtime if we don’t start the motor but I did reset the charging parameters on the $39aud Chinese controller. Reading the posts about batteries etc I often wonder if some of these folks have time to relax in the cockpit with a cold beer on a hot day.

[tml]

Hoping to see more on drop in Lithiums. Both Trojan and now Victron are promoting new versions. Any user feed back?
Tom

[Scrimma]

Originally Posted by CapnBazza

I have an 80 amp alternator on my 22hp Diecon Kubota diesel. I had to tighten the single belt a bit to stop it squealing because the batteries are greedy in the morning. I made no other changes. My solar panels have the batteries back to full by lunchtime if we don’t start the motor but I did reset the charging parameters on the $39aud Chinese controller. Reading the posts about batteries etc I often wonder if some of these folks have time to relax in the cockpit with a cold beer on a hot day.

Haha yes it can turn into a science experiment rather quickly. Moving onto my boat with the wife is definitely about having a coldicoldie on a hot day and exploring all the ocean has to offer, rather than fretting about every little detail. It's good to hear your set up is going well. Ill have 660w of the highest efficiency panels on the market pushing up to 50A and regularly 40A+ from the MPPT to the batteries so I will depend on alternator changing very rarely. I would need to upgrade my battery charger though if I wanted to run the portable generator as it's old school and cannot be programmed for lithium.
I wonder how long is ok to run my Hitachi 80A alternator at 100% before it starts to do damage to the alternator...
I can in the mornings before the sun is up, having to leave an anchorage and therefore running the engine for a good 30mins or so. Or, potentially more if we need to motor out a long ways.
As long as my alternator knows not to overcharge the lithium if I have to motor for an hour or 2 when the batteries are close to topped up....thoughts?

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by swampbush

Enerdrive dcdc chargers are very adjustable and designed for LiFePO4 and seem reasonbly priced in Australia. I haven't used them but will if I need them after I change to LiFePO4.

http://www.enerdrive.com.au/product/...rger-40a-plus/

Any settings claiming to be good for LFP are always way too high.

Use programmable, 13.8V max for rates under .3C, maybe 13.9V for higher.

No CV stage required, charge To the setpoint and stop.

No Float.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Scrimma

I wonder how long is ok to run my Hitachi 80A alternator at 100% before it starts to do damage to the alternator...

May be just a few minutes. Get accurate temp monitoring going and stand there ready to cut field current is really the only way to test.

Varies with ambient, cooling system etc.

[cj88]

Originally Posted by swampbush

Enerdrive dcdc chargers are very adjustable and designed for LiFePO4 and seem reasonbly priced in Australia. I haven't used them but will if I need them after I change to LiFePO4.

12V 40A DC2DC+ Battery Charger - Enerdrive Pty Ltd

Thanks for the heads up, looks interesting.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by Scrimma

I wonder how long is ok to run my Hitachi 80A alternator at 100% before it starts to do damage to the alternator...

A super dumb regulated alternator - Hitachi in particular - will not run at 100% for more than a few minutes if you want the voltage to be as designed. Their voltage specs are not great to start with. They are designed to output 14.4 volts +/- .3 volts. This means they output somewhere between 14.1 and 14.7 volts....and then the warm up and voltage drops.

This link (by Mainesail) will explain a lot about alternators.
https://marinehowto.com/automotive-a...cle-batteries/

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Scrimma

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
rtable generator as it's old school and cannot be programmed for lithium.
I wonder how long is ok to run my Hitachi 80A alternator at 100% before it starts to do damage to the alternator...>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In addition to mitiempo's link there's this, posted many, many times here and on other boating forums:


Hitachi/Yanmar Alternators: (by Maine Sail)

Some alternators though, such as those made by Hitachi and found on Yanmar diesels, are dumber than a pound of beetle poop. Actually, to the alternator, they are pretty smart but to your batteries and the speed of charging they are flat out stupid. Why?

Hitachi alts with dumb regulators, and some others, limit voltage but also reduce voltage based on alternator temperature. This is a self protective feature installed in the internal dumb regulator to prevent the alternator from cooking itself. Remember voltage is the pressure that allows more current to flow. So, if we reduce the absorption voltage, then we also reduce the current the alternator is supplying.. The battery simply will not accept the same current at 13.4V that it did at 14.4V and as a result the alternator will run cooler. What do you suppose this does to your batteries over time.......?

The problem is that when cold you will get 14.3V to 14.4V out of the Hitachi but as the alternator heats up the dumb regulator begins to reduce the CV/voltage limit based on the alternators internal temperature. It is not uncommon to find a Hitachi alternator at 13.4V when hot. This is REALLY, REALLY DUMB....

If you have a dumb regulator, and notice the voltage dropping, it is likely a temp compensated dumb regulator. Get rid of it or plan to buy new batteries more often.

If you have a temp compensated alternator or a Hitachi alternator on a Yanmar you really are in dire need of external regulation if deep cycling a larger battery bank.

This is from:

http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com...d.php?t=125392

and these, too:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...on-125843.html


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...or-142083.html

[Scrimma]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

In addition to mitiempo's link there's this, posted many, many times here and on other boating forums:


Hitachi/Yanmar Alternators: (by Maine Sail)

Some alternators though, such as those made by Hitachi and found on Yanmar diesels, are dumber than a pound of beetle poop. Actually, to the alternator, they are pretty smart but to your batteries and the speed of charging they are flat out stupid. Why?

Hitachi alts with dumb regulators, and some others, limit voltage but also reduce voltage based on alternator temperature. This is a self protective feature installed in the internal dumb regulator to prevent the alternator from cooking itself. Remember voltage is the pressure that allows more current to flow. So, if we reduce the absorption voltage, then we also reduce the current the alternator is supplying.. The battery simply will not accept the same current at 13.4V that it did at 14.4V and as a result the alternator will run cooler. What do you suppose this does to your batteries over time.......?

The problem is that when cold you will get 14.3V to 14.4V out of the Hitachi but as the alternator heats up the dumb regulator begins to reduce the CV/voltage limit based on the alternators internal temperature. It is not uncommon to find a Hitachi alternator at 13.4V when hot. This is REALLY, REALLY DUMB....

If you have a dumb regulator, and notice the voltage dropping, it is likely a temp compensated dumb regulator. Get rid of it or plan to buy new batteries more often.

If you have a temp compensated alternator or a Hitachi alternator on a Yanmar you really are in dire need of external regulation if deep cycling a larger battery bank.

This is from:

http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com...d.php?t=125392

and these, too:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...on-125843.html


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...or-142083.html

Tha la for that! I had read that before, but I guess I should explain why I'm still confused. If my Hitachi will get warm very quickly as my lithium will try and draw 80A constant out of it, then my alternator will begin to drop it's output to protect itself...that means my alternator will not continue to charge my batteries based on that info correct? To me, that sounds as if my alternator will just become useless shortly after starting the engine when it heats up too much. Does that mean due to alternator voltage dropping, that there is in fact no risk to the alternator itself? It will simply get warm and decrease it's output and not be over worked?! (Allbeit ineffective at charging the LFP as a result...)

I will have plenty of solar and also a generator to put amps back into the batteries. I just need to upgrade my charger to lithium algorithm capable...?