31.2Kw Victron LiFePO4 Split System Install

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by Rorzech

I think you would be happier with 1,600 watts additional solar & a BMV-712 Smart Victron monitor. Just sayin'. You have a great system !

Already have the BMV-712 (and Color controller and Cerbo) and I'd love to add another 1600W+ of solar - I just need a bigger boat to fit them

I'm hopeful we'll be able to add ~600W of solar for a total of ~2450W.

[Rorzech]

My 3,400 watts solar seems to be enough for me for the last 22 years. They might actually have paid for themselves by now, being $7.00/watt back then. Today they are as low as $0.70/watt. I still like your setup. My next bank will be Lithium Titanate. Bullet proof, and 32,000 cycles. A little pricey still.

[nebster]

Originally Posted by Rorzech

My next bank will be Lithium Titanate. Bullet proof, and 32,000 cycles. A little pricey still.

Bulletproof, but big and heavy. You must have a big boat!

[Whatta Life]

Originally Posted by Rorzech

My 3,400 watts solar seems to be enough for me for the last 22 years. They might actually have paid for themselves by now, being $7.00/watt back then. Today they are as low as $0.70/watt. I still like your setup. My next bank will be Lithium Titanate. Bullet proof, and 32,000 cycles. A little pricey still.

I'm in the Lithium liquidation business and get different lithium chemistries in from time to time .I currently run 3 different Lithium chemistries . LFP in one boat , NMC in NEV's and LTO is the other boat . LTO is heavier and larger but is by far my favorite . They are so tough it is hard to hurt them and when it come to safety NOTHING comes close , NOTHING . Unfortunately The LTO we got were in Cell form (11ah to 68ah) so I have to build each battery which is a pita . The other advantage is in a 6s , 12v application they do well upto 16v. So you can adjust alternator voltage up and don't have to worry much about voltage losses .

[CalmSeasQuest]

A quick update - We're still doing early testing and have much more to complete but enjoyed our first air-conditioned night sans Genset. Performance is pretty close to expectations.

We're waiting on extensive running rigging upgrades and the delivery of our North Sails Helix Code Zero - I'm excited to start sea trails in a few weeks.

[sailingchiro]

That is awesome. What size of a/c are you running? Now that we have someone that has done it, we will need to do it cheaper and more dependable. Thanks for taking one for the team. I will be excited to hear of the parts needed or not needed for the future in your system.

This reminds me of the first watermaker and how we make them now.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by sailingchiro

That is awesome. What size of a/c are you running? Now that we have someone that has done it, we will need to do it cheaper and more dependable. Thanks for taking one for the team. I will be excited to hear of the parts needed or not needed for the future in your system.

This reminds me of the first watermaker and how we make them now.

The AirCons are 60K BTU of 220V Dometics – (3 @ 12KBTU, 3 @ 8KBTU all fitted with SoftStarts) We'll rarely run more then 20K BTU overnight.

There is no doubt this could be accomplished for far less than I've invested however I'm confident this build will be very dependable.

I accepted significant additional cost for redundancy. Virtually every potential single point of failure has been accounted for.

I initially considered considered a DIY build using Winston cells (same as what are in the Victron Smart Batteries.) In the end I abandoned that plan due to limits in my DIY skills and potential insurance concerns. Those without those concerns could no-doubt build the same capacity for a fraction of the Victron cost.

[wanderlust42]

Hi Tom, it's John from Neverland here. Congratulations on getting this massive setup installed and operational! And thanks for sharing all of your information with us--it's been hugely helpful and has given me a lot to think about as I finalize our own electrical refit design.

A few questions for you about your design that I haven't been able to figure out on my own, if you would be so kind:

1) I assume since you are using MultiPlus instead of Quattro that you need to have an external transfer switch for the incoming shore or generator power. Were you able to repurpose the factory transfer switch or did you have to install a new solution (and if new, what did you use)?

I appreciate your thinking ahead to global cruising in areas with 230v/50hz electricity instead of US 120/240v split phase 60hz. A couple of questions about how and why your mixed voltage 2x 120v Multi's and 2x 230v Multi's are used in conjunction with the Autotransformer:

2) Which of the Multi's are being used with the Autotransformer and how are they being used/wired to the Autotransformer? I assume the Autotransformer is being used to provide 120/240v split phase, but I'm not clear on whether you have the 2x 120v Multi's in parallel/split phase or the 2x 230v Multi's in parallel going through the Autotransformer...and I don't think there's a way to use all four with mixed voltages.

3) Why did you use a combination of 120v and 230v Multi's instead of just going with all 230v and running all AC output through the Autotransformer to get your 120/240v split phase balancing? That way it would seem you wouldn't lose the charging capabilities of the 120v Multi's when you're on global 230v/50hz shore power, and also presumably reduce some of the complexity of your system.

4) Did you specify your 230v Multi's to be 240v/60hz output instead of the factory 230v/50hz? I understand that spec is available, and on the AC input side they're already capable of accepting a wide range of 220-240v and 50 or 60hz. My understanding is that the Autotransformer will pass through the same frequency as the input (the Multi's output), and the air conditioners will run on 50hz but they are derated and prefer to run at 60hz.

5) What is your "manually activated" system to divert global 230v/50hz power to only the 230v Multi's and not the 120v Multi's? I'm curious about the sequence and wiring between the generator, shore power, and transfer switch(es) to account for the mixed 120/240v split phase (generator and US shore power) and potential 230v/50hz global shore power).

Thanks again for all your efforts to document your setup and answer our questions--I already know how much time, patience, frustration, and $$$ this all takes...and I'm only just getting started! I hope our paths cross again sometime so I can revisit your gorgeous boat and enviable setup!

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by wanderlust42

Hi Tom, it's John from Neverland here. Congratulations on getting this massive setup installed and operational! And thanks for sharing all of your information with us--it's been hugely helpful and has given me a lot to think about as I finalize our own electrical refit design.

A few questions for you about your design that I haven't been able to figure out on my own, if you would be so kind:

1) I assume since you are using MultiPlus instead of Quattro that you need to have an external transfer switch for the incoming shore or generator power. Were you able to repurpose the factory transfer switch or did you have to install a new solution (and if new, what did you use)?

I appreciate your thinking ahead to global cruising in areas with 230v/50hz electricity instead of US 120/240v split phase 60hz. A couple of questions about how and why your mixed voltage 2x 120v Multi's and 2x 230v Multi's are used in conjunction with the Autotransformer:

2) Which of the Multi's are being used with the Autotransformer and how are they being used/wired to the Autotransformer? I assume the Autotransformer is being used to provide 120/240v split phase, but I'm not clear on whether you have the 2x 120v Multi's in parallel/split phase or the 2x 230v Multi's in parallel going through the Autotransformer...and I don't think there's a way to use all four with mixed voltages.

3) Why did you use a combination of 120v and 230v Multi's instead of just going with all 230v and running all AC output through the Autotransformer to get your 120/240v split phase balancing? That way it would seem you wouldn't lose the charging capabilities of the 120v Multi's when you're on global 230v/50hz shore power, and also presumably reduce some of the complexity of your system.

4) Did you specify your 230v Multi's to be 240v/60hz output instead of the factory 230v/50hz? I understand that spec is available, and on the AC input side they're already capable of accepting a wide range of 220-240v and 50 or 60hz. My understanding is that the Autotransformer will pass through the same frequency as the input (the Multi's output), and the air conditioners will run on 50hz but they are derated and prefer to run at 60hz.

5) What is your "manually activated" system to divert global 230v/50hz power to only the 230v Multi's and not the 120v Multi's? I'm curious about the sequence and wiring between the generator, shore power, and transfer switch(es) to account for the mixed 120/240v split phase (generator and US shore power) and potential 230v/50hz global shore power).

Thanks again for all your efforts to document your setup and answer our questions--I already know how much time, patience, frustration, and $$$ this all takes...and I'm only just getting started! I hope our paths cross again sometime so I can revisit your gorgeous boat and enviable setup!

Hi John,

This build has been very fluid and many elements have changed from the original design. I won’t be back aboard Ghost to review the completed build and train on all the new systems for a few weeks but I’ll try to answer as best as I can. Once I complete sea trials, I'll share more information about the final design.

1) We were able to use the existing FP relay. I carry a couple spares as we have had them fail. We did test the use case of simultaneous Genset and Shore power and it did not fail.

2) All of the like-voltage Multis are running in parallel (master/slave in Victron speak.) The 110V Multis are fed by the 100A Autotransformer. This was initially done to account for the leg imbalance issue which does not impact the 230V units.

3) Compliments of the Autotransformer; all of our chargers (4X totaling 180A@24V) function regardless of Genset, 110V/60Hz or 220V/50Hz shore-power. The Autotransformer provides 2 (mostly) balanced 110V legs. In the event of 230V/50Hz shore power, we disable passthrough (to avoid the 50Hz) instead driving all AC needs (up to 12,000W nominal) via the Multiplus inverters.

4) Correct, the Autotransformer does not change frequency. All of our Multis output 60Hz. All AC power onboard is 60Hz with the exception of the battery chargers when connected to 230v/50Hz.

5) The addition of the Autotransformer simplified the 230V/50Hz solution but I'm unclear as to the exact wiring, steps and power cord modifications needed to use 230V/50Hz shore power.) I’m happy to share more once I’m up-to-speed

Thanks John! I’m looking forward to getting back out there.

[wanderlust42]

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

2) All of the like-voltage Multis are running in parallel (master/slave in Victron speak.) The 110V Multis are fed by the 100A Autotransformer. This was initially done to account for the leg imbalance issue which does not impact the 230V units.

Thanks for all of your answers! I hadn't considered the possibility that you were using the Autotransformer to feed balanced power to/through the 120v Multi's rather than accept their power and feed balanced power to the split legs on the AC distribution panel, which is how every Victron use case seems to utilize the Autotransformer. More for me to think about!

[CalmSeasQuest]

A couple observations as we near completion on this project...

Not surprisingly, early testing shows we're well-short on Solar. I'm going to wait and see how everything performs in real-world use as we'll have more output once we get back to the Caribbean. We'll likely try to add another ~600W of flexible SunPower panels on the Port side of the coach roof.

Don't overlook Temps - I did a heat study in the engine wells before deciding on the location(s) of the LFP batteries. I initially failed to consider the additional heat output of the 4X Victron MultiPlus and the resulting temperature based de-rating. Much to my surprise; Victron bases Multi inverter and charger performance on 77f. As temps rise, output falls off...

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...efficiency.pdf

I'm adding 2 additional 3" powered vents lines with inline exhaust blowers that should provide ~270CFM airflow beyond the existing factory passive ventilation. The blowers will be managed by the Cerbo using the temperature sensor in the 12V or 24V Victron shunts in the Port engine well. This should help keep the 2X 12V LFP batteries and 4X Multis "happier".

[SweareDeep]

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

Greetings all,


There are a few areas yet to be determined such as monitoring. We currently use a Color Control GX and are adding a Cerbo GX with the GX Touch 50 controller. The hope is to transition all to the Cerbo, but it is unclear if it supports multiple BMS.

It is my understanding that the Ve.Bus BMS doesn't get anything beyond on-off type information from the batteries. In other words, the BMS can tell other devices (inverter-chargers, solar controllers, etc) directly or over Ve.Bus to turn on or off, but it isn't sending other data such as cell voltages to the Cerbo, because the batteries aren't sending it that data. That data is only sent by the batteries over Bluetooth and can currently only be seen by VictronConnect, which has no logging.

I hope I'm wrong about this, but that's my understanding.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by SweareDeep

It is my understanding that the Ve.Bus BMS doesn't get anything beyond on-off type information from the batteries. In other words, the BMS can tell other devices (inverter-chargers, solar controllers, etc) directly or over Ve.Bus to turn on or off, but it isn't sending other data such as cell voltages to the Cerbo, because the batteries aren't sending it that data. That data is only sent by the batteries over Bluetooth and can currently only be seen by VictronConnect, which has no logging.

I hope I'm wrong about this, but that's my understanding.

Using the widgets and the advanced view allows you to display virtually every data point from every component. All data is pushed out to the Victron Portal and the VRM App. It's really quite powerful. We're still tweaking settings but when complete, I'll share screen shots of all the available data and graphs. At the moment I can't imagine any desired real-time or historical data that's not available.

[SweareDeep]

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

Using the widgets and the advanced view allows you to display virtually every data point from every component. All data is pushed out to the Victron Portal and the VRM App. It's really quite powerful. We're still tweaking settings but when complete, I'll share screen shots of all the available data and graphs. At the moment I can't imagine any desired real-time or historical data that's not available.

Thanks. That's great to hear.

I'd been told that cell voltages did not get sent to the BMS because the on-off decisions for charging/discharging were made by the internal BMS within the battery, and the decision was all that was communicated to the external BMS. I'm glad it turns out I was misinformed!

This information makes me more likely to go with Victron for my install, so it's Victron who should really be thanking you, though with the size of your install they're probably thanking you plenty already! Thanks!

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by SweareDeep

Thanks. That's great to hear.

I'd been told that cell voltages did not get sent to the BMS because the on-off decisions for charging/discharging were made by the internal BMS within the battery, and the decision was all that was communicated to the external BMS. I'm glad it turns out I was misinformed!

This information makes me more likely to go with Victron for my install, so it's Victron who should really be thanking you, though with the size of your install they're probably thanking you plenty already! Thanks!

Individual cell voltage are not available thought the App or portal (at least not as I've been able to determine.) I'm not aboard at the moment but it's my understanding you can monitor cell voltages by logging into the BMS.