110V(3 wire) panel split to 230V(3 wire) and 110V(3 wire) breakers?

[BrettB]

Haven't had much luck Googleing. Is it okay to make half the breakers on a 110V(3 wire) panel, 230V(3 wire) breakers? Or does it need to be split out into its own panel?

I have a few 230V(3 wire) appliances that are hooked up to breakers on the 110V panel and therefore never been used. I would like to put those appliances exclusively on a 230V inverter and trying to make this change as simple as possible.

Thanks in advance for the help!

[sailormed]

I have difficulty understanding your question. Maybe you make a quick handdrawing with your proposed wiring, so others can better grasp your idea.

[BrettB]

Originally Posted by sailormed

I have difficulty understanding your question. Maybe you make a quick handdrawing with your proposed wiring, so others can better grasp your idea.

Super rough, but hopefully this makes sense.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by BrettB

Super rough, but hopefully this makes sense.

Why not? But label the panel clearly and be careful about the outlets. You don't want to plug one of your 110v appliances into 220v or vs versa.

[roland stockham]

Need to know more as there are potentially dangerous consiquences here. What are you wanting to power, is it N American 230v or European? In Europe 230 V is a 3 wire system with a pwer, nutral and earth. Netral and earth are clamped at the generator. Frequency is 50hz. In N America it is a 4 wire system with a central nural line then 2 phase + & - 125v so 2 hot wires. To ceate this setup using an inverter you either need a very specialist one the has both 120 & 230 volt outputs or possibly using 2 120v inverters linked the same wav you run 2 6v batteries to make 12v. Dont now enought Bout the inverters to know if this would be safe or possible

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

Need to know more as there are potentially dangerous consiquences here. What are you wanting to power, is it N American 230v or European? In Europe 230 V is a 3 wire system with a pwer, nutral and earth. Netral and earth are clamped at the generator. Frequency is 50hz. In N America it is a 4 wire system with a central nural line then 2 phase + & - 125v so 2 hot wires. To ceate this setup using an inverter you either need a very specialist one the has both 120 & 230 volt outputs or possibly using 2 120v inverters linked the same wav you run 2 6v batteries to make 12v. Dont now enought Bout the inverters to know if this would be safe or possible

Roland, I think you are making this too complicated. Many boats in various parts of the world have 230v inverters. They hook up to a 12v battery and produce 230v, usually 50hz, usually TWO WIRE, sometimes three wire. This is exactly the same as 110v inverters which many of us have. They come in all sizes so the OP can choose one which suits his intended usage, no problem with that.

In fact we did exactly that on our boat, which is wired for 110v and has a 110v shore power system including outlets and an excellent 110v inverter. But while overseas we wanted to use 220v power for appliances we purchased, including power tools, gadgets, and an air conditioner. We installed a 12-220v inverter and connected some outlets. We also installed a large transformer for the air conditioner that could also drive the outlets. While on shore power in marinas with native 220v connections we used this transformer to convert the 220v (or 230v or 240v) shore power to 110v which most of the boat equipment needed. All over the world our boat was on 110v regardless of the shore power supplied.

None of this was rocket science. The most tricky part was remembering which outlet had what power and which tool required which power, usually that was easily determined by the type of plug. But as we travelled we collected a wide variety of plug styles which often did not fit any outlet on the boat, and when we came to a new country it was always a bit of an engineering issue to get the right plugs and get all the power converted and connected to the correct voltage, Whew! And I would recommend that the yacht owner building these systems DO NOT cross connect any wires between the 110v and 230v systems, including NOT connecting either or both to the boat's bonding system. Keep 110v 230v and 12v all separate.

For us it all turned out well, we never blew up anything, and now, back in 110v land, we are finally weening ourselves from 230v.

So we think that boat owners should not be fearful of adding additional power systems on their yachts, just use common sense and be careful.

[OS2Dude]

Unless I completely misunderstood your question, NO, you can not run a 220 breaker off a 110 panel (and have 220v). Why? A 110 panel has 110v service. In a house, the service is 220v, split into two 110v branches. A 220 breaker will bridge both 110 branches, while a 110 breaker does not. Two separate 110 services coming into your boat may OR MAY NOT have a 220 difference, it would depend on how they wired the pedestal.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by OS2Dude

Unless I completely misunderstood your question...

Yeah, you did. He just wants to have the bottom three breakers completely separated from the 110shore power system to be powered by a 12v to 230v inverter.

As long as he keeps the wiring, including any ground wires, separate it will be fine.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by OS2Dude

Unless I completely misunderstood your question, NO, you can not run a 220 breaker off a 110 panel (and have 220v). Why? A 110 panel has 110v service. In a house, the service is 220v, split into two 110v branches. A 220 breaker will bridge both 110 branches, while a 110 breaker does not. Two separate 110 services coming into your boat may OR MAY NOT have a 220 difference, it would depend on how they wired the pedestal.

True. To answer the OP, the simplest form of house wiring in the US has 220V from the street running to the meter, then to a single panel. In this one panel we have a number of single pole breakers connected to one or the other of the hot 220 wires. They try to balance the 110V loads as equally as possible between the two 220 hot lines. Then to get 220V circuit, in the *same* panel there will be a 2 pole breaker with each pole connected to one of the hot 220 lines.


220V from the street has 2 hot 110V lines having 180 degrees phase difference, plus a neutral and an earth ground. The ground and neutral are carried thru to all circuits.


You should be able to put the 220V circuits from invertor in same panel as 110V from other sources, just label clearly. Of course your outlets for 220 will use completely different socket configurations vs the 110V, so no possibility of a mixup. Don't connect neutrals between the 110 and 220 circuits.



Grounding of both circuits to the boat's common ground is normally recommended by the official sources. Personally I do that on my boat. Also you should have a GFI in the first outlet of each circuit.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by waterman46

Don't connect neutrals between the 110 and 220 circuits, but do connect both grounds to all circuits together at a common ground for the boat.

This is an interesting discussion point: Should you connect the ground line of an AC system to a common ground for the boat (ie, the boat's bonding system).

Many electricians recommend this, the point being that if a failing appliance shorted out to it's case the AC would run to ground, or in the case of a boat, the water, through the common bonded ground system.

However this is a common source of electrolysis on parts of the boat's grounding system. One way this happens is if a nearby boat is defective in it's wiring and is bleeding stray ac currents into the water. Your boat's grounding system, via a through hull fitting, will provide a convenient path to the shoreside ground and can lead to electrolysis.

Another way for electrolysis to occur is when some device on your boat has the AC Neutral and the AC Ground wires clamped together, and then bonded to the grounding system. This puts the boat's ground system at an AC potential if there is a polarity issue anywhere in the boat and can then lead to electrolysis on the grounding points.

Finally, many inverters DO connect the AC neutral to the ground wire and this can lead to "hot" spots around the boat. In our case we used stainless steel AC outlet face plates, which looked quite nice, but which were connected to the AC outlet ground wire (green). I kept noticing that when I brushed the outlet face plate with my bare leg I got a 110v tingle. Finally I disconnected all the green wires. No more tingle. AND no electrolysis.

I am sure an expert electrician could recommend a better solution than I came up with. but for now I stand with the position that connecting the AC ground to the boat's ground is not recommended.

[stormalong]

No reason why you should not mix voltages on the panel. My panel is 12VDC and 110VAC.

There is one thing that you should do - put protective covers on the back of the panel so that you cannot touch the wiring. The 110V and the 220V should have separate covers which will also prevent the wires from touching. If you have to work on the wiring only one should be uncovered at a time.

High voltage can kill. Full precautions should be taken to be sure there is no power to the panel while working on it. Shore power should be disconnected. Inverters should be turned off and their circuit breakers turned off and taped in the off position to remind yourself not to turn them on. Many inverters have large input capacitors on them so after opening the breakers plug a load into the inverter to be sure the residual power is drained.

[catman]

Do not supply a circuit breaker panel with two sources of power.
The 120volt / 60hz panel should be left alone.
Add an additional panel with the inverter as a supply and run the 240 volt appliances from there.
If the appliances are rated for 230 volt 50hz they may be European made.
North America uses 120/240 volt, 60hz.
Some appliances are frequency sensitive and should only be run at manufacturers spec.
either 60 or 50 hz.
Catman

[catman]

The mixed voltage panels appear to be one but they are actually separate panels inside.
They will have barriers between the different voltage supplies.

[ebs001]

You should have two separate panels, one for street power and one for inverter power. As shown you have two sources of power in the same panel, which is not permitted by most electrical codes. This presents a hazardous situation.

Outlets are configured for a particular voltage and amperage. When wiring any outlet the proper configuration should be used so that there can be no confusion.

[BrettB]

Sorry, missed a few responses and thanks everyone for the feedback. I am trying to do precisely what wingssail is saying.

I want to hook up some European appliances to a single source, a European inverter, while leaving the rest of my appliances on a single source, US shore power.

So there will be no intermingling of sources and I will be sure and label outlets that are 110V vs 230V(European).

At the moment I only have a single cover for the entire AC panel section, to protect it from the 12V section, but do not have an additional cover/divider for the new split. Should be able to solve this part without too much trouble.