110V(3 wire) panel split to 230V(3 wire) and 110V(3 wire) breakers?

[ebs001]

Originally Posted by BrettB

Sorry, missed a few responses and thanks everyone for the feedback. I am trying to do precisely what wingssail is saying.

I want to hook up some European appliances to a single source, a European inverter, while leaving the rest of my appliances on a single source, US shore power.

So there will be no intermingling of sources and I will be sure and label outlets that are 110V vs 230V(European).

At the moment I only have a single cover for the entire AC panel section, to protect it from the 12V section, but do not have an additional cover/divider for the new split. Should be able to solve this part without too much trouble.

Do you have any appliances which could be plugged into the wrong source? There is no North American 110 volt appliance that can be plugged into a European outlet and visa versa.

[roland stockham]

Just to clarify my earlier comments. I agree wiring up a 240v panel is not that difficult. I tend to agree that separate panels for 220 and 120 would be good. My concern was that the OP mentions some unspecified equipment that had not been used. Plugging European equipment into a European 240v inverter, no problem. Plugging European equipment into N American 220v 4 wire supply (shore power or inverter) is where there may be a problem. If it is a heater it should be fine but if it includes any control circuits there could be an issue. Although both are designed to run on 220/240v N American devices only expect to see 120v at any one time. The cycle is +120 / 0 / -120. European equipment sees 0 / 230. Don't know if this matters just thought it was worth considering and would be interested if anyone knows more

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by wingssail

This is an interesting discussion point: Should you connect the ground line of an AC system to a common ground for the boat (ie, the boat's bonding system).

Many electricians recommend this, the point being that if a failing appliance shorted out to it's case the AC would run to ground, or in the case of a boat, the water, through the common bonded ground system.

However this is a common source of electrolysis on parts of the boat's grounding system. One way this happens is if a nearby boat is defective in it's wiring and is bleeding stray ac currents into the water. Your boat's grounding system, via a through hull fitting, will provide a convenient path to the shoreside ground and can lead to electrolysis.

Another way for electrolysis to occur is when some device on your boat has the AC Neutral and the AC Ground wires clamped together, and then bonded to the grounding system. This puts the boat's ground system at an AC potential if there is a polarity issue anywhere in the boat and can then lead to electrolysis on the grounding points.

Finally, many inverters DO connect the AC neutral to the ground wire and this can lead to "hot" spots around the boat. In our case we used stainless steel AC outlet face plates, which looked quite nice, but which were connected to the AC outlet ground wire (green). I kept noticing that when I brushed the outlet face plate with my bare leg I got a 110v tingle. Finally I disconnected all the green wires. No more tingle. AND no electrolysis.

I am sure an expert electrician could recommend a better solution than I came up with. but for now I stand with the position that connecting the AC ground to the boat's ground is not recommended.

This advice will kill someone. The first clue is that no Certified Marine Electrician will use the word "electrolysis" as this has absolutely nothing to do with electrical systems on boats and is a different process entirely. If you are getting a "tingle" through the ground then you have a ground/neutral bond which has nothing to do with AC/DC ground bonding.

There is so much misinformation in this post I suggest you delete it.

AC ground and DC negative MUST be bonded for safety. AC ground and AC neutral MUST Only be bonded at the power source. (pedestal, inverter with automatic switching or generator with automatic switching). Any other place will give you that "tingle" and you have a dangerous situation somewhere.

To the OP, hire a certified marine electrician to sort this out for you. This is not the place for trustworthy electrical information.

Retired ABYC Certified Marine Electrician

[BrettB]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

Just to clarify my earlier comments. I agree wiring up a 240v panel is not that difficult. I tend to agree that separate panels for 220 and 120 would be good. My concern was that the OP mentions some unspecified equipment that had not been used. Plugging European equipment into a European 240v inverter, no problem. Plugging European equipment into N American 220v 4 wire supply (shore power or inverter) is where there may be a problem. If it is a heater it should be fine but if it includes any control circuits there could be an issue. Although both are designed to run on 220/240v N American devices only expect to see 120v at any one time. The cycle is +120 / 0 / -120. European equipment sees 0 / 230. Don't know if this matters just thought it was worth considering and would be interested if anyone knows more

I never mentioned N. American 220V, 4 wire.

The plan would be to only hook up N. American appliances to 110V/3-wire/30A shore. And European appliances to 230V/3-wire/inventer. On the same panel, separate breakers and no mixing of sources.

(Grounds would all be bonded, as prescribed by ABYC)

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by BrettB

I never mentioned N. American 220V, 4 wire.

The plan would be to only hook up N. American appliances to 110V/3-wire/30A shore. And European appliances to 230V/3-wire/inventer. On the same panel, separate breakers and no mixing of sources.

(Grounds would all be bonded, as prescribed by ABYC)

If you don't already have them, send an email to boatpoker@gmail.com and I'll respond with the ABYC Electrical Standards.

[hellosailor]

I concede that separate panels is a potentially worthwhile safety factor. And since ABYC charges so much for standards that don't apply here...unless an insurer is requiring them...as a practical matter, sure, the outputs from one inverter can be placed on the same panels as the outputs from another inverter, REGARDLESS of whether that means sine wave vs. raw, 110 vs 220.

I'd just be extra careful that the panels made it clear the devices were on different supplies, AND be really religious about color coding on your wiring. 120 US and 220 EU are going to be wired differently. Each will have a black wire that could be lethal if confused for a 12VDC black ground, so I'd also want the wiring routing separately and some extra warning and labeling put on the wire bundles behind the breaker panel.

With clean installation and reasonable precautions...and the usual "there's no space for another panel!" I can see it being a reasonable choice.

[smac999]

Lagoon does this direct from factory. on a 2018 52’ anyways.

230v 50hz and 120v 60hz inverters feeding diffetevt breakers in same panel. Properly labeled.

And also shore power breakers for battery chargers in sane panel. So 3 ac sources in same panel at same time.

Multi voltage chargers from shore feeding batteries. So no Mater where in world you plug in. You always have the correct voltage feeding the correct plugs / appliances.

Personally I wasn’t a fan. Especially with the same blue / Brown wires for all 3 voltages.

[smac999]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Yeah, you did. He just wants to have the bottom three breakers completely separated from the 110shore power system to be powered by a 12v to 230v inverter.

As long as he keeps the wiring, including any ground wires, separate it will be fine.

The grounding wires would be joined together. 120 and 230

The hot and grounded wire (netreal) would be separate.