410: Used Lagoon 410 for a Beginner

[james3]

I always dreamed about sailing around the Mediterranean (I live in Italy) and maybe, one day around the world, to discover the world slowly and with the time I want so in the 2005 I took my boat license that able me to sail around the world but for various reasons I never had time to do experience so actually I'm almost totally inexperienced, (I did just few charter and the only catamaran that I was on was a Lagoon 410).

In these days I'm taking my decision and I was really attracted by the Lagoon 440/450 model but since I have no experience and I still don't know if I really want to spend my next years on a boat because I never lived abroad for long times, I was thinking to buy at the beginning an used 410 Lagoon Catamaran that seems pretty affordable ( I found some old 2003 units for less than 100.000€), then in one year sailing sell it to buy a bigger and newer definitive one or leave my project.

Do you think that an old 2003 Lagoon 410 worth the money they ask?
Does these kind of hulls have problem after all these years (of course if they never had accidents I mean ) ??

thanks for your attention

[ArtM]

Subscribing to this post.
I've done some reading and have never heard of any indemic problems with the older 410's, except that they had some minor design issues that were later resolved in the newer production models. These were very minor, things like the placement of winches that would snag sheet lines, things like that.
I'll be interested to hear from more experienced people as well.

[james3]

Originally Posted by ArtM

Subscribing to this post.
I've done some reading and have never heard of any indemic problems with the older 410's, except that they had some minor design issues that were later resolved in the newer production models. These were very minor, things like the placement of winches that would snag sheet lines, things like that.
I'll be interested to hear from more experienced people as well.

I was reading your thread http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ing-83444.html
I think that after you find a eligible boat to buy you need to commit an examination of the hull and the structure then ask a refit quote to check if cost of the boat + refit cost has a good value.

Did you visit any boat ?? Have you ever sailed on a Lagoon 410??

I have been sailing on one of the 410 models in 2003 and it seemed very comfortable and fast to me, just a little bit small in the interior (4 cabin version).

I hope that someone with much experience about will reply this thread

[ArtM]

I've never seen a 410 of this age. My information is from an older Catamaran buyers guide, crusing, and sailing book called "Catamaran Communique", written by a well-known cruising expert and surveyor. He never mentioned any structural safety or quality issues. Many people have said that the internal quality of Lagoons is poor, but that the general build quality is very good to excellent.

I have never seen a Lagoon 410 listed below USD $200,000.

I just looked at some photos of 2002/2003, and they do not have the winches next to the mast on the roof, so it seems that those issue existed even earlier than that.

[james3]

Originally Posted by ArtM

I've never seen a 410 of this age. My information is from an older Catamaran buyers guide, crusing, and sailing book called "Catamaran Communique", written by a well-known cruising expert and surveyor. He never mentioned any structural safety or quality issues. Many people have said that the internal quality of Lagoons is poor, but that the general build quality is very good to excellent.

I have never seen a Lagoon 410 listed below USD $200,000.

I just looked at some photos of 2002/2003, and they do not have the winches next to the mast on the roof, so it seems that those issue existed even earlier than that.

this unit is for selling for almost 100,000€ http://www.boatshop24.com/it/barche-...fr-410-3339903

If the hulls and the structure are in good conditions and the refit will not cost an eye of your head (for example 20k€ to 30k€ could be a good deal), I think that could be a good opportunity, but as I wrote in this thread I'm inexperienced so I would like to read the comment from someone experienced and also I have many doubts.

[james3]

Anyway taking a look to the pictures here seems that the boat I looked need a lots of job and has an horrible interiors http://www.sednasystem.com/BoatToSal...d_BTS=250&lg=0
Maybe it worth less than they ask and you need skill and knowledge to bring it to a good condition, all this of course if the structure is in good condition (seems that a survey was done on oct 2011)

[ArtM]

The delaminating wood interiors are common, one of my main concerns about buying a lagoon. There is no simple or standard way that I know of to fix this. Maybe the outer layer can be peeled off, and replaced with a new thin laminate?
I think these pictures show the story of a boat which is solidly built on the outside, including the rigging, but poor quality interior components which are easily soiled, corroded, or damaged.

The say that they have a recent survey - I guess you can request to see it.

I haven't seen fixer-upper lagoons, and none at all in the price range. If this were in the U.S., I would probably buy it myself.

[james3]

Originally Posted by ArtM

The delaminating wood interiors are common, one of my main concerns about buying a lagoon. There is no simple or standard way that I know of to fix this. Maybe the outer layer can be peeled off, and replaced with a new thin laminate?
I think these pictures show the story of a boat which is solidly built on the outside, including the rigging, but poor quality interior components which are easily soiled, corroded, or damaged.

The say that they have a recent survey - I guess you can request to see it.

I haven't seen fixer-upper lagoons, and none at all in the price range. If this were in the U.S., I would probably buy it myself.

The delaminated panels are not a problem if the overall interiors wood condition are good, it could be find a solution to fix that easily.

What I'm concerned is about engines and all the electrics stuffs conditions inside (2003) that in case of replacing will cost a lots of money and will make the good buying price a bad deal.

Another thing I'm concerned is about the sandwich construction technique of the hulls that was abandoned from Lagoon on the newest model (above the line water), I really never liked the sandwich construction method and I also saw that other more performance oriented catamaran builders (Outermer ex. always used solid fibreglass for making hulls, but this is just my opinion and I really have no experience in hulls constructions and maintenance.

Don't forget even that this catamaran was used for charter and usually they are poorly equipped indeed this unit has no electric generator, A/C and spinnaker for example that will cost enough.

The best thing is to find a reliable yacht yard and ask to quote a complete refurbishing so it could be possible to have the final price + refurbishing, but I really don't know where to ask for this.

Anyway you are closer than me (I live in Italy) to that boat that is located in
Le Marin (Martinique - Caribbean)

Can I ask if this will be your first catamaran?
What do you think to buy a boat like this to make experience than moving to a newer and bigger one ?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by james3

The best thing is to find a reliable yacht yard and ask to quote a complete refurbishing so it could be possible to have the final price + refurbishing, but I really don't know where to ask for this.

Getting a firm quotation on a "complete refurbishing" is a big ask. The yard would have to do a complete survey themselves in order to determine the scope of the work, and that in itself is a time consuming and expensive job for them. As a result, they are not likely to undertake the job on a fixed price, but will want to do the work on a "time and materials" basis. This is like signing a blank check, and for an admittedly inexperienced owner, it could be a disastrous means of getting some "experience".

If they were to offer a quotation, I think that you could be sure that it would be so well padded (to cover their bums against unforeseen difficulties) that you would walk away.

IMO, the only way buying a fixer-upper makes sense is if you are going to do all of the work yourself (and you know what you are getting into).

Lets face it: the reason the boat is so cheap is a reflection of what it is worth.

Cheers,

Jim

[james3]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Getting a firm quotation on a "complete refurbishing" is a big ask. The yard would have to do a complete survey themselves in order to determine the scope of the work, and that in itself is a time consuming and expensive job for them. As a result, they are not likely to undertake the job on a fixed price, but will want to do the work on a "time and materials" basis. This is like signing a blank check, and for an admittedly inexperienced owner, it could be a disastrous means of getting some "experience".

If they were to offer a quotation, I think that you could be sure that it would be so well padded (to cover their bums against unforeseen difficulties) that you would walk away.

IMO, the only way buying a fixer-upper makes sense is if you are going to do all of the work yourself (and you know what you are getting into).

Lets face it: the reason the boat is so cheap is a reflection of what it is worth.

Cheers,

Jim

I totally agree with you, the concepts that you explained works the same in the house building sector where I did some bad experiences in the past and actually, when I refit an house, I know what to do and who call step by step to make the various jobs (ex.: concrete works, floor posing, painting etc.)

If I had the experience and I was able to spilt the various refitting steps I would think about buying that boat and maybe that unit would be a good deal, but since I don't know how to do I will take a look to other units.

Do you have any suggestions ?
If I could pay a reasonable amount to someone experienced that would arrange the refit for me maybe I could make a good experience

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by james3

What I'm concerned is about engines and all the electrics stuffs conditions inside (2003) that in case of replacing will cost a lots of money and will make the good buying price a bad deal.

Another thing I'm concerned is about the sandwich construction technique of the hulls that was abandoned from Lagoon on the newest model (above the line water), I really never liked the sandwich construction method and I also saw that other more performance oriented catamaran builders (Outermer ex. always used solid fibreglass for making hulls, but this is just my opinion and I really have no experience in hulls constructions and maintenance.

To me the electric and mechanical stuff is easy. It's standard mechanical work, for which there are many providers. Also, it's work which is well understood, and relatively easy to quote. It's "just money" - or just time and money, if you can do the mechanical work yourself. Any experienced surveyor with even basic mechanical knowledge will be able to estimate the scope of any issues with the engines and other mechanical parts.

Upholstery and woodwork, to me, is a bigger deal. It requires craftsman skills that I don't have, and don't really know how to get. The parts are all custom built. I wouldn't want to have to buy all those parts new.

I might be wrong about this. Maybe cabinet makers and upholsterers are more available and reasonably priced than I realize!

All I can say about construction is that i have never heard of a problem with Lagoons.

[james3]

Originally Posted by ArtM

To me the electric and mechanical stuff is easy. It's standard mechanical work, for which there are many providers. Also, it's work which is well understood, and relatively easy to quote. It's "just money" - or just time and money, if you can do the mechanical work yourself. Any experienced surveyor with even basic mechanical knowledge will be able to estimate the scope of any issues with the engines and other mechanical parts.

Upholstery and woodwork, to me, is a bigger deal. It requires craftsman skills that I don't have, and don't really know how to get. The parts are all custom built. I wouldn't want to have to buy all those parts new.

I might be wrong about this. Maybe cabinet makers and upholsterers are more available and reasonably priced than I realize!

All I can say about construction is that i have never heard of a problem with Lagoons.

Yeah anyway I think that for this price that boat must be visited maybe with an experienced surveyor, What about osmosis ?
Anyway If I were closer I already go to visit it but from Italy it's a big trip

Do you already have experience about refitting a boat?

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by james3

Yeah anyway I think that for this price that boat must be visited maybe with an experienced surveyor, What about osmosis ?
Anyway If I were closer I already go to visit it but from Italy it's a big trip

Do you already have experience about refitting a boat?

No my experience is with motorhomes - and one sailboat that I did very little work with.

The main thing about sailboat repairs is that everything will cost more than you think, compared to a similar repair on a car or motorhome. A $20 part will be $40. A $100 repair will be $200. This might vary depending on where you live, but it's said to be like that here in the U.S.

I've heard that you can get work done in the islands more cheaply, but then it's not first-rate work. I think that, if this boat is sailable "as is" after adding some sails, then everything else could be done "on the go". Cosmetic work can be done a little at a time. As long as you have one working engine, you can move the boat (not sure how it would handle in tight quarters though), and work on the other one over time.

I wish there was a project boat like this in the U.S. - Maybe there is one, but I haven't seen it. Remember, it's a SAILboat. As long as it has a sail, working rudders, and a working rig, you can sail it. Everything else is peripherals - woodwork, engines, electronics, autohelm, cushions, refrigeration, windlass, even anchors can be added or repaired as and when you are ready for them.

Engines maybe are an exception, in that size you will need propulsion if you intend to get in and out of any marina.

[james3]

Originally Posted by ArtM

No my experience is with motorhomes - and one sailboat that I did very little work with.

The main thing about sailboat repairs is that everything will cost more than you think, compared to a similar repair on a car or motorhome. A $20 part will be $40. A $100 repair will be $200. This might vary depending on where you live, but it's said to be like that here in the U.S.

I've heard that you can get work done in the islands more cheaply, but then it's not first-rate work. I think that, if this boat is sailable "as is" after adding some sails, then everything else could be done "on the go". Cosmetic work can be done a little at a time. As long as you have one working engine, you can move the boat (not sure how it would handle in tight quarters though), and work on the other one over time.

I wish there was a project boat like this in the U.S. - Maybe there is one, but I haven't seen it. Remember, it's a SAILboat. As long as it has a sail, working rudders, and a working rig, you can sail it. Everything else is peripherals - woodwork, engines, electronics, autohelm, cushions, refrigeration, windlass, even anchors can be added or repaired as and when you are ready for them.

Engines maybe are an exception, in that size you will need propulsion if you intend to get in and out of any marina.

Yeah I know that everything cost more in nautical area not just in sailing, this is because yacht = money, you have a yacht then you have to pay more...(here in Italy is worst too)
About refitting that boat I don't agree with doing it step by step and on the go, I would prefer to make the whole job once and in one time then enjoying the boat, of course set it able to sail to move to a place where you know that the job can be done it's a good idea.
Anyway speculate about this isn't useful, the boat must be seen Martinica Island isn't that far from US you are definitely closer if you are interested, for me it's a little bit harder I should arrange a at least 10 days trip to Martinica then visit the boat too.

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by james3

About refitting that boat I don't agree with doing it step by step and on the go, I would prefer to make the whole job once and in one time then enjoying the boat, of course set it able to sail to move to a place where you know that the job can be done it's a good idea.
Anyway speculate about this isn't useful, the boat must be seen Martinica Island isn't that far from US you are definitely closer if you are interested, for me it's a little bit harder I should arrange a at least 10 days trip to Martinica then visit the boat too.

You're right, I thought it was in Europe, since the price was listed in EUR. I didn't look at it closely. I'll think about making this trip. It's still a long way out of the way just to look at a boat, though. I'm currently on the west coast, and have no planned trips (as of now) to the East coast.

Doing everything at once will require putting the boat in a place where it is easily accessible, or else paying someone to do it. That means you have to estimate the required work and come up with a large amount of cash, in advance, all for a boat which you don't know at all.

If I were going to do that, I would buy a much newer boat in much better condition from the start, and not fool around with all this repair and refitting.

I would prefer to take delivery of the boat, and learn it's strengths and weaknesses before moving forward with repairs. With some thought and insight, you may find that you can handle some things yourself, that some things are not as difficult as originally thought, and you might be able to find a better source for some things if you take your time with it. I wouldn't want to pay boatyard rates for every single thing, up front.