440: Replacing Skin Fittings And Ball-valves The Boat's 5 Years Old.

[NahanniV]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

They are not plastic skin fittings they are all 'TRUDESIGN' composites fittings no different to the ball valve construction all type approved for survey.
Cheers

They are glass reinforced plastic.

I personally don't think plastic skin fittings are a good idea unless they are completely protected inside a seacock like the forespar 93 series.

But they are approved. Remember this is the same spec. that allowed your brass skin fittings.

The approval test is a load of 340lbs. hanging off the skin fitting and a valve.
The skin fitting needs to be as short as possible. You have added a long lever to this by leaving the skin fitting full length and adding an elbow. Try the test I recommended and see if you think the assembly is strong enough.

What you have can work, especially if the location is protected and the hoses are well secured. But, if you are going to the trouble of replacing, I think you can do better. Just thought I'd say something at this point when it would be easy for you to change your plan.

Cheers,
JM

[Lagoon4us]

You miss the point totally, i'm in CROATIA not Australia nor America. Thanks

[Lagoon4us]

JM i'm a retired boatbuilder, the last boat i built i employed 110 men comprising shipwrights, boilermakers, welders, carpenters and painter etc.

I'm presently cruising in Croatia heading for Greece etc. Over here hauling a boat out and fitting GROCO's would be a major event alone, the other thing is why would i bother.

The item's i've chosen are good for purpose, they far exceed what Beneteau deemed appropriate.

I have not left the skin fitting at a long length these are as you buy them, i have not yet fitted them the photo was simply to show the valves to anyone else considering the same.

Having a valve vertically off a skin fitting is dangerous because it is indeed a lever and the weakness is the cut thread. Do you think there may be some pictures coming that will show these installed after subsequent slipping in Greece.

The final install will show these valve bodies nestled into a saddle that lock's them in place eliminating any chance of breakage by mechanical forces. There are other ways to achieve the same end. My last boat (private) i did the same way actually in my time in small boats the only GROCO's i've ever seen were very old ones, up to 10 years ago in Australia they would be considered a rarity.

Remember not everywhere in this huge world has the same facility as you may be used to available, when cruising foreign just sourcing the simplest of items is a time and $$$$ consuming effort.

Cheers.

[s/v Jedi]

Lagoon, while I completely understand your rationale on your thru-hull and valve selection, you can't just do away with comments because you are in Croatia. I have friends there and it is not a backwards country at all. They also have FedEx, UPS etc.

I am in Panama, and when I can get any gear I want here (shipped from overseas), you can do that too in Croatia.

Nahanni wrote:

But they are approved. Remember this is the same spec. that allowed your brass skin fittings.

which should just stop you bringing up that certification argument. It is all about good, better, best and you made a choice based on other factors like availability, your assessment of the new valves etc. which is just fine, but probably not the mechanically best one available. You can (and will if I understand you correctly) add additional mechanical support to the valves to improve the installation and bring it to equal performance. That however, sounds like more work than FedEx'ing some Groco parts in

I disagree with the anti-plastic crowd. I have installed a bronze and a plastic fitting + seacock (bronze=Groco, plastic=Forespar Marelon) right next to each other many years ago and both perform equally well. I have an isolation transformer but without that the plastic version might even do better.

cheers,
Nick.

[Lagoon4us]

Not directed at anyone at all, it just makes me smile that the best Seacocks are ultimately connected to, plastic strainers, nylex hose with worm drive clamps some times only one! , plastic toilet fittings, high pressure pumps with the preceding items as well etc etc..

Yes there are bilge pumps yes there high water alarms, yes there is the ability to turn the valve off, but fair dinkum 'get a grip'.....

[Watercolor]

Lagoon4us - Would you be willing to accept a thru-hull and ball valve that lost 60% or more of its strength within 7 days of installation on your boat?

[Lagoon4us]

Take it up with TRUDESIGN thanks i'm sure they'll be responsive to your knowledge. effice@trudesignplastics.com they might make you chief advisor!!!

Ciao

[John_ZA]

Thanks for sharing Frank and for showing remarkable restraint from the bs comments. I am absolutely astounded how much one mans ability to do things the way he wants it done offends people that it has fa to do with in the first place.

[Watercolor]

Lagoon4us – I asked my question in all sincerity. If you knew that within a week of putting your thru-hull/seacocks on your boat they would loose over 60% of their tensile strength and flexural modulus, would you buy them.

I have, by the way, emailed TruDesign and asked about their thru-hull/ball valves, twice – type of resin and % and type (long/short) glass. All they were willing to tell me is that they were glass reinforced/ nylon resin. Nylon resins are pretty straightforward, the most common are Nylon 6 or Nylon 6/6. They are virtually the same for marine purposes. It’s most likely TruDesign uses Dupont Zytel glass filled nylon, or at least the nylon resin and has a local compounder make the molding pellets.


My goal was simply engage you in a conversation by asking the question: “Would you be willing to accept a thru-hull and ball valve if you knew it would lose 60% or more of its strength within 7 days of installation on your boat?” And then providing you with the following information for you to use as you saw fit.

You mentioned that the fittings met ISO 9093-2. I’m well versed in ISO 9093-2:2002E and have raised a few questions regarding the wording of the standard, which no one at ISO seems capable of answering.

In ISO 9093-2 there is the following:

4.5 Mechanical properties
Materials for fittings shall meet the following minimum physical properties at room temperature in dry condition:
 tensile strength: 60 MPa (ISO 527); 8,700 psi
 flexural modulus: 2700 MPa (ISO 178); 391,600 psi
 impact strength: 9 kJ/m2 (ISO 180/A).
NOTE The mechanical properties relate to the materials in the non-stabilized condition.

My questions were:

1. Why would you use a “dry as molded” (at this point there is virtually no moisture in the part) for a standard when the part will spend its life saturated in water?

2. Why would you want to test the parts in a “non-stabilized condition?” Especially when nylon becomes stabilized with moisture.

They weren’t able to provide an answer.

The ABYC has a similar statement in their H-27 standard.

The fact is some plastics degrade in water, and some degrade in water in a serious way. Nylon is one of those plastics. Nylon is great as rode, it absorbs moisture and elongated (stretches) and swells. There are a lot of excellent plastics out there that would give bronze and SS a run for their money, nylon is not one of them, I’ve worked with nylon and just don’t feel it the plastic for that purpose.

The fact is nylon is hydroscopic, it absorbs tremendous amounts of water. It softens and swells. Forespar’s Marelon, (AKA Dupont Zytel 13% glass filed nylon 6/6) will lose 57% of its tensile strength and 64% of its flexural modulus within a week of being put in the water. Nylon 6 is nylon 6. I can tell you with 98% certainty the TruDesign fittings will do the same.

Nylon’s a wonderful product, just a plastic I’d use for a thru-hull or seacock on a boat.

I’ll stop there for now.

Good luck and fair winds

[Lagoon4us]

I'm well aware of Nylon (billet if you like) expansion in seawater and the dimensional tolerances required to accommodate in effect 'shrinkeage'.

TRUDESIGN a KIWI Company market a full range of valves and fittings through various outlets in our part of the world.

The way you posed your posted question had all the appearances of the typical armchair 'troll argument' that this Forum is getting quite often which in my opinion is a great shame.

Let's look at the day to day life of Mr Skinfitting/Ball cock. It sits in place allowing liquids to pass through and every now and then its handle is turned and it stops the flow. Now where does it's strengths lie?

Longevity, it's ball and seat need to accommodate occasional shell and grit inside the closing ball, the plastic seal the ball resides in could scratch/mark and eventually weep.

Mechanical operation, the handle/lever could break this would result in a spanner having to be used. Carry spares (which i have)

Further to mechanical, a knock from say a sliding foot when trying to access, ahhh the valve needs to be positively located ie connected to the hull. A simple plastic pipe support or saddle if you like, that effectively locates the unit into a locked position, one that sensibly aims the hose in the direction needed. This clamp is epoxy bonded into it's final chosen spot.

Strength in itself. Well contrary to the wonderful side loading videos depicting a rigger hauling side-loads onto a fitting with a wire sling i believe? Very scientific to say the least and hardly appropriate as i don't usually use a seacock as an anchor point to haul an engine into place or kedge me ship off a reef! As above the mechanical loads come from impact or stress, the loads of Mr Skin Fitting are the actual load of the tension of the backing nut PROVIDED it's installed correct.

Now i also got criticised for the length of the skin fitting thread the post saying The skin fitting needs to be as short as possible. You have added a long lever to this by leaving the skin fitting full length and adding an elbow.
Well gee i just thought it was a picture of a bunch of valve units posing on a table, maybe i should have cut them all to there various (as yet unknown lengths) and applied sealant just to satisfy you?

I seriously believe some on this forum see themselves as Headmasters correcting the children's work whilst they slurp down their morning coffee, are you for real mate? Do something constructive, post your own project, help someone who may choose to take your advice but DONT look for stupid comments to make in your 'Where's Wally' book of advice!

FACTS:-
Lagoons are fitted from the factory with brass ball-valves, we are cruising foreign countries, slipping is imminent for us, I chose to do something. Is there any part of this you don't understand?

Rant over, i'm thinking this forum has lost it's validity for me.

[MarkJ]

I emailed the company for a response:

Hi Can you have a look at the forum thread
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f139/replacing-skin-fittings-and-ball-valves-the-boats-5-years-old-98364.html
and help us out by saying if your thru hull fittings lose 60% of their strength within 7 days?

Can you also comment on the other comments in the thread?

Their reply

Ed Griffin replied

Hi Mark,

Thank you for informing us of this.

Unfortunately there are some 'cheap' plastic fittings on the market - most made of Polypropylene which is very weak and will bend, or Acetal which degrades with chlorine (not good for toilet/waste water applications). There also appears to be a bit of scaremongering out there presumably coming from the manufacturers of Brass/Bronze thru-hull fittings.

The material we use in our fittings is a special designed glass fibre reinforced composite manufactured for us by EMS in Switzerland and designed especially for high strength marine applications. Skin fittings and ball valves using composite material have been used in marine applications in New Zealand for over 30 years now. Our fittings have been installed in boats for over 15 years and we have not received any warranty claims or notices of failures. As for one of the forum members' statement of losing 60% strength in 7 days, I don't know what to say other than that is just 'nonsense'.

We have IMCI approval to ISO 9093-2 on all size fittings, meaning that assemblies made up of a thru-hull fitting, ball valve, then hose tail can all handle a load of 155 kgs (hanging from the tail). Our 1 1/4" and larger sizes (1 1/2" and 2") even pass the UL1191 rating meaning they can handle a 500 lb (227 kg) load. Our most recent achievement in certification has been Bureau Veritas Type Approval which we received in August 2012. The IMCI approval is for recreational craft and the Beureau Veritas approval for Commertial Vessels.

Just for your information we are not just designers and manufactures of these composite fittings but experienced boaties that use and test these products in the harsh waters around New Zealand.
With the Teflon ball inside the Ball Valve running on Teflon rings there is no need for any lubrication and we are of the opinion that these composite fittings will last the life of the vessel, unlike Brass or Bronze fittings that are prone to electrolysis and corrode.

I have attached a copy of our IMCI and BV certificates and a photo to show you a load test.
Can you please do us a huge favour by posting my reply to you on the cruisersforum.

Many thanks,


--
Ed Griffin
support@trudesignplastics.com

[Lagoon4us]

Thank you Mark

[dirkdig]

Where can i buy them for my 440?
Need to do it as we are a 2005.
Thanks for your help Frank, much appreciated.
We are in Melbourne.

[Lagoon4us]

BIAS are agents, good pricing but also consider dumping the bathroom sink bowls over the side rather than through the shower pump.

It will save you valuable amps, less crap in the pump filter and no noise. That is if your boat isn't already converted.

Also check my thread for freshwater management if you wish.
Cheers

[Lagoon4us]

Today i have measured then placed one of the components in a jar of seawater, at the end of a 7 day period i'll re-measure, with digital callipers looking for dimensional changes, i'll also put a load on it and measure elongation compared to a dry unit.

Absorption of the water is the alleged problem.

I'll post photo's showing the results, to deteriorate by 60% is a huge leap so we should see quite a change in the hardness, weight and dimensions.

Will be interesting to see how sincere some posters are in their FACTS.