General Info: Replacement jib sheets?

[savoir]

The cat people seem to be as sensitive as ever. Oh well.

[jbinbi]

Originally Posted by savoir

The cat people seem to be as sensitive as ever. Oh well.

Nah, just Civilized.

[jbinbi]

Originally Posted by tuskie

The Lagoon part of CF may contain some fairly basic questions, that some of the experts may find amusing. Probaby because some inexperienced sailors buy Lagoons. Just because a newbie asks "silly" questions about sheet colours etc. there is no need to make snide or denigrating comments.

Actually , been sailing 50+ years, from racing Lasers as a teenager to owning several monos for coastal cruising and crewing on various IOR etc. boats through the times.

This is my first cat though.

But more to the point, I believe there have been about three smart people for all human's history. The guy who invented fire, the wheel, and maybe Einstein. Everyone else IMO has just plagarized and improved

So I am not above that, I just thought maybe someone had the same thoughts as me regarding different colored sheets, and I wouldn't have to re invent the wheel so to speak. Oh , and I am cheap, didn't want to purchase from West Marine, so was asking that as well.

[PaulinOz]

Originally Posted by savoir

The cat people seem to be as sensitive as ever. Oh well.

Savoir answer me this as I have only been reading this forum for the past 5 years but I have never been active in the Mono section of this forum.

Not because I do not like them (I am currently main sail trimmer on a racing Beneteau FIRST 44.7 when my full time cruising allows) so I lean both ways. I live full time on one of these unsafe, Lagoon 450 Condomaran, and practice my Sails-manship up and down the east coast of Australia. As well as owning another of these end of the world as we know it Lagoon catamarans that is in charter.

Do cat owners continually troll through the posts of new mono owners trying to gain some insight into there boat only to be derided for their choice of boat. Pointing out that Brand XYZ has brought the downfall of seamanship.
I do not know as I have nothing constructive to add so I do not go to that section of the forum.

We Lagoon owners do not need to have the boats deficiency pointed out by people who are unlikely to have ever owned one or even sailed one. We are more than capable of doing that ourselves. Or just leave that to other cat owners, there is enough of them here happy to jump on any body who shows an interest in heaven forbid a Production Lagoon, Leopard or Fountain Pagot etc. They must obviously not want to sail anywhere without the motors on and remain tied to the dock just going down on a weekend to have a drink on the boat then return home.

Do Lagoon owners get touchy about the inane comments from some people who on the face of it should know better. You bet your arse we do.

But we will still invite that Home built cat owner or Steel mono hull owner anchored next to us over to our chosen boat, to share a drink and food in an anchorage and guess what we all get on and have a good time.

I am currently anchored in a Bay sheltering from a bit of a wind, there are 9 Cats here and 6 monos all within half a mile of me. I will be heading out in the Dinghy to invite some over soon for sun downers in a minute.

In the end what you think of our boats does not really matter, I will still come here and try to help when I can, as I have gotten so much info from the 99% of the people here, that I should not let the odd Troll get up my nose.

PS: Still waiting for an Uncivilized response to where to go and get some semen-ship from a manufactures website.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Say may name & I shall appear
And I don't live online, or on this site. It's called a real life when you unplug. So catching PaulinOz's request took a (short) while. But, you're welcome.

As to my comment about the decline & fall of SEAmanship fomenting WW III, it's quite a surprise to me. Perhaps it was over the line, but one spark does not an infurno make, unless conditions were already perfect for such.
It's there, & short of my hiring a hacker, it stays. I genuinely didn't think that it'd stir such responses.
Also, perhaps a few folks should switch to decaf. Ever seen the cartoon where the cat's clinging to the ceiling? I'm just saying...


Okay, on to (semi)-serious matters. About which, I'm somewhat at a loss. As just the concept of inquiring as to wanting a yacht manufacturer's website in order to learn seamanship from it is flat out Loony. And if I need explain why, then common sense is long dead & buried. Sadly. As without it, higher learning about the ways of the sea likely just won't take.


Back to the OP's jib sheets question for a moment. Is it not plain that I explained in full detail, for a good page of text. The logic behind routing ones lines; AKA the why? As well as an in depth guide of how to analyze ones current lines, how best to select & size new ones, & where best to get the lowest prices on same?
Or was all of that lost on this crowd?

And FYI, I could have also posted the math which goes with choosing lines, based on loads, sheave diameters & how they weaken lines, ditto on some of the other science involved, etc. Though that would have entailed another page of text. But I'm guessing that that wouldn't have been construed as being On Topic or helpful either.
TMI I guess, non? Or is it because I don't currently belong to a special society open only to Lagoon owners, which grants one supreme sailing wisdom?

There's a lot of Free wisdom, common sense, & Very helpful info posted here guys. And perhaps if you're up for reading it, I'll be forgiven for having picked up seamanship via working very, very hard at it since the age of 3.
In my experience, said trait & skills doesn't come from a manual, or a yacht manufacturer's website, though it does need studying on. As well as spending time at Sea.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

Actually , been sailing 50+ years, from racing Lasers as a teenager to owning several monos for coastal cruising and crewing on various IOR etc. boats through the times.

This is my first cat though.

But more to the point, I believe there have been about three smart people for all human's history. The guy who invented fire, the wheel, and maybe Einstein. Everyone else IMO has just plagarized and improved

So I am not above that, I just thought maybe someone had the same thoughts as me regarding different colored sheets, and I wouldn't have to re invent the wheel so to speak. Oh , and I am cheap, didn't want to purchase from West Marine, so was asking that as well.

I totally agree. I didn't intend to cause offence but posts #17and #19 fitted my comments.

[44'cruisingcat]

OK, so instead of getting grumpy and defensive, educate me.


My experience with rope clutches has been that they are hard on rope, they creep under load, they can be very difficult, verging on impossible, to release under load, and they can jam easily if there's any twist in the rope.


But I admit, I've never sailed on a boat where the headsail sheets ran through clutches. Which is why I found it amazing.


So tell me the benefits of having your sheets on clutches, rather than having a port and a starboard winch for them. (Aside from saving a few hundred dollars.)

[44'cruisingcat]

FWIW, I've been using old mainsail halyards as replacement jib sheets. The halyards are generally in very good condition except for where the rope clutches have damaged them at about mid length, so make fine replacement jib sheets.

[jbinbi]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

OK, so instead of getting grumpy and defensive, educate me.


My experience with rope clutches has been that they are hard on rope, they creep under load, they can be very difficult, verging on impossible, to release under load, and they can jam easily if there's any twist in the rope.


But I admit, I've never sailed on a boat where the headsail sheets ran through clutches. Which is why I found it amazing.


So tell me the benefits of having your sheets on clutches, rather than having a port and a starboard winch for them. (Aside from saving a few hundred dollars.)

The pictures shown in above posts don't show the layout all that well.

The 380 has a port side steering station. In front of the wheel on the coachroof are 2 winches, large electric and a bit smaller manual. Leading to those winches are the main halyard, main sheet, BOTH jib sheets (the stb side is led across the entire cabin to this station), and 2 reefing lines.

Each line is led thru a clutch. The reason for this is that there is only 2 self tailing winches, so when you need to have an extra line under load and use a winch, you can lock it down via the clutches.

Here is my scenario. I head out, raise the main on the electric winch, when it is up, lock down the halyard on it's clutch. Take it off the winch. Fall off, put the main sheet around one of the 2 winches. Take one jib sheet, put it around the other winch and pull out genoa.

I don't normally sail with sheets locked down via the clutch, though say I need to reef. I would have the jib sheet loaded, the main sheet loaded, and now need to load the main halyard as well. I only have 2 winches. I would probably lock down the jib sheet, put the main sheet around a winch so I can ease or pull it, and then put the main halyard around the other winch so I could ease under tension. You get the picture. I suppose I could put a third winch up there, but it is somewhat crowded.

It is no different say than in my previous monohull, where at the coachroof to the cabin top I had my mainfurler, mainsheet, boom vang etc. Only 1 winch, all lines were thru clutches.

So here is how I tack. I am sailing on autopilot in Wind Mode. I press the 2 buttons to auto tack. I get ready with one jib sheet to pull, and unload from the self tailer the loaded sheet. boat turns i let sheet go, put other sheet on winch, pull quickly, wrap into tailer, press button to pull it in.

Sorry PaulinOz, if I am single handing, I don't have my drink until I get back to the harbor

[PaulinOz]

Sorry PaulinOz, if I am single handing, I don't have my drink until I get back to the harbor

No worries mate, but I did specify that it was a soft drink so that should be OK.

"trim then pick up my soft drink in a real glass with lots of ice"

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

FWIW, I've been using old mainsail halyards as replacement jib sheets. The halyards are generally in very good condition except for where the rope clutches have damaged them at about mid length, so make fine replacement jib sheets.

G'Day 44,

Wondering what sort of clutches you have on board that are stuffing your lines so badly? We have a mix of older Spinlocks and some Lewmars, and don't have such problems. Our runners go through Lewmar clutches and release under pretty heavy loads, every time we tack or gybe. Line is spectra core w/ dacron cover. After several years of use, there is slight fuzzing on the cover in the grip area. Our main and genoa halyard go through Spinlocks. These will not release under full load, but don't slip and don't bugger the covers.

I suspect that our loads are similar, and that you should be able to get similar performance from clutches... so I wonder why you don't?

Jim

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

OK, so instead of getting grumpy and defensive, educate me.


My experience with rope clutches has been that they are hard on rope, they creep under load, they can be very difficult, verging on impossible, to release under load, and they can jam easily if there's any twist in the rope.


But I admit, I've never sailed on a boat where the headsail sheets ran through clutches. Which is why I found it amazing.


So tell me the benefits of having your sheets on clutches, rather than having a port and a starboard winch for them. (Aside from saving a few hundred dollars.)

Ok, so what we are really discussing here is the pros and cons of leading all (or most) sail control lines to a single helm station. This is not a Lagoon thing; many many cruising cats have this set up with small variations. Look at the helm set ups on ALL Leopards, Fountaine Pajots and many other brands. But Lagoons make great targets for put downs.

The advantages are obvious; the boat can be controlled by one person who is not required to move from side to side. If the helm has good all round visibility, all sail control, navigation operations and watch keeping can be done from the one protected station. This frees up cockpit space, makes single handing easier, safer and more comfortable.

The disadvantages have already been discussed in earlier threads. Visibility of foresails is reduced on " wrong side" tacks, making a move from the helm advisable. From 8 to 10 sail control lines are often led to the helm station. That many winches are not practical to mount, so jammer blocks (clutches) are used to hold lines so winches can be used for other lines. Our boat, like many other similar designs utilizes 3 winches. One electric is good, especially for single handed halyard winching. Ours has 3 electrics, so no, not for a cost cutting exercise.

Lagoon has fitted oversize genoa sheets; 14mm, where as all other lines are 12mm. These sheets have shown no abnormal wear from the Spinlock jammers in 5 years. Nor have they slipped. They do require cleaning! Release can be a challenge under high loads, but taking up tension on the winch before lifting lever cures this. Jams due to line kinks are a potential problem; good practice of flaking lines on the cockpit floor allows for these to run freely. Thicker diameter sheet line also helps reduce kinks.

Basically, all lines to a single helm is a well tested design for cruising cats. It works. We get to test the "run all over the boat" alternative when we run our spinnaker or gennaker. The winches for these are on the aft corners. It's fun in light weather but my choice is not to have to do the same for all sails in all sorts of weather.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

G'Day 44,

Wondering what sort of clutches you have on board that are stuffing your lines so badly? We have a mix of older Spinlocks and some Lewmars, and don't have such problems. Our runners go through Lewmar clutches and release under pretty heavy loads, every time we tack or gybe. Line is spectra core w/ dacron cover. After several years of use, there is slight fuzzing on the cover in the grip area. Our main and genoa halyard go through Spinlocks. These will not release under full load, but don't slip and don't bugger the covers.

I suspect that our loads are similar, and that you should be able to get similar performance from clutches... so I wonder why you don't?

Jim

On this boat, Lewmar D2's. On the old boat IIRC they were spinlocks but pretty old.

I got less than 2 years out of a mainsail halyard before the cover started to wear through. Under full halyard tension it felt like the clutch handle would break before the clutch released.


I don't know why I would get any worse life than others with similar use. In fact I'm pretty sure I don't since our sistership was getting about the same mileage from halyards. (I've now removed the clutch from the main halyard.)

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by tuskie

Ok, so what we are really discussing here is the pros and cons of leading all (or most) sail control lines to a single helm station. This is not a Lagoon thing; many many cruising cats have this set up with small variations. Look at the helm set ups on ALL Leopards, Fountaine Pajots and many other brands. But Lagoons make great targets for put downs.

Ah, no. I can certainly see the advantages of leading all lines to a helm station, particularly if it's a raised one.

My post which you seemed to take exception to never mentioned raised helm stations. IMO they're a matter of taste. There are certainly pro's to them as well as con's.

I questioned running sheets through clutches. It's not something I'd like to have, for the reasons I've already mentioned. I'd sooner pay the extra for an additional winch.

[savoir]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

On this boat, Lewmar D2's. On the old boat IIRC they were spinlocks but pretty old.

I got less than 2 years out of a mainsail halyard before the cover started to wear through. Under full halyard tension it felt like the clutch handle would break before the clutch released.


I don't know why I would get any worse life than others with similar use. In fact I'm pretty sure I don't since our sistership was getting about the same mileage from halyards. (I've now removed the clutch from the main halyard.)

Were you taking up the load before releasing the clutch? The idea is to wind the main halyard in on a winch and actually see it move an inch or two through the clutch before you try to release the clutch. Before doing anything you ease each of the mainsheet, cunningham and vang.