400: Looking at buying, your thoughts please

[MadCat]

Long time reader, first time poster.

I'm looking at a 2010 Lagoon 400 4 cabin version for right around $200k USD with under 1500hrs on the Yanmars, new batteries and gennaker. I haven't flown down to see it yet nor pay for a survey, but wanted to get your thoughts before doing so. I have spent weeks researching and reading many posts on this and other forums. Overall I have come to think the Lagoon 400 is right for.

Other side note, I haven't gone as far as requesting an insurance quote yet but from what I've read I'm estimating $500/mo and planning for around $800/mo in repairs and preventative maintenance (I realize this is impossible to know.)

What are you thoughts? Please constructive criticism only, I prefer positive energy. I know the story of the two happiest days in a boat owner's life.

Thanks

[Privleoplag]

so here's my thoughts:
I think you're high on your insurance.. probably less than $300 a month, I'd guess closer to $250-$275.

What are your plans for the boat? Charter? Live aboard? The reason I ask is doesn't the 400 have 4 heads.. if a live aboard, or even as a weekender.. that's a bit overkill. Who wants to take care of 4 heads? If you're thinking of starting or adding to a charter business, the 400 would make sense.
Otherwise.. I'd consider a similar year/priced Leopard 40 with only 2 heads.. of course, I'd consider a Leopard 1st anyway.. but that's me.
Isn't the helm on the 400 on the wrong side?

[MadCat]

Originally Posted by Privleoplag

so here's my thoughts:
I think you're high on your insurance.. probably less than $300 a month, I'd guess closer to $250-$275.

What are your plans for the boat? Charter? Live aboard? The reason I ask is doesn't the 400 have 4 heads.. if a live aboard, or even as a weekender.. that's a bit overkill. Who wants to take care of 4 heads? If you're thinking of starting or adding to a charter business, the 400 would make sense.
Otherwise.. I'd consider a similar year/priced Leopard 40 with only 2 heads.. of course, I'd consider a Leopard 1st anyway.. but that's me.
Isn't the helm on the 400 on the wrong side?

Thanks for the reply! The plan is enjoy the hell out of it in the Med this summer, will live aboard and run a small charter between friends and social media friends (we have enough interested already to feel certain half of the summer we will have guests that will contribute )

I like the fact that the 4 cabin version has 2 additional crew beds (although they don't look too fancy!) As far as heads, with girls on board - the the more the merrier.

Is there a 'wrong side' for a helm? lol

[tuskie]

A boat purchase is a very personal thing. There is a wide diversity of boats that have happy owners, so what suits you may not be some one else's choice. No one can say, "yes, that's the boat for you".

What, specifically, do you want to know?

I'm very happy with the L400 that I own for my current use. It's a 3 cabin, 2 heads, owners version. If you are using all 4 cabins as well as the crew fore peak cabins, then 4 heads would not be too many. It would be a crowded boat (10 people ) that I wouldn't wish to live on for too long! Short stays would be OK. Most guests are like fish; after 3 days they go off.

The price sounds cheap; definitely get it professionally surveyed and look over it carefully yourself. Once you know it's condition then you can better estimate costs for repairs, maintenance and upgrades. The engine hours are fine, IF they have been correctly used and serviced. If Yanmar SD50 sail drives are fitted, make sure that the cone clutches do not slip. If they do, get them repaired or replaced as part of the deal. Good luck with the purchase.

[boatman61]

Engine hours tell me its an ex-charter boat so should have been basically maintained.. there'll be some bumps and scratches around but as an ex-charter sounds about right.
My 5yr old Bene cost me $60K... in Europe the same year was selling around $100K min private owned..
Worth a punt I'd say.. most folk are after the owners version as opposed to the 'Cram em in Models' popular for 'Club Med' shared charters

[PaulinOz]

"Engine hours tell me its an ex-charter boat"

Boatman what do you think the average use of a charter boat up there in the North is.
Down here mine (L421) is out for bare boat charter aprox 200 days a year, and hours just coming up on 5 years are aprox 3,500.

So 1500 sounds low to me for a boat over 5 years old.

Maybe it's the Aussie charterers that are the ones motoring everywhere in cats without sails.

Although that would not explain why I am in the process of replacing the Main after 5 years of use.

There is an advantage to having more than one head, when it brakes down and it will you can repair it at your leisure, or cannibalize an unused one for parts to fix the main use one.

L400 is a fine boat, you know what the next step is it involves travel and a survey good luck and enjoy the ride.

"Is there a 'wrong side' for a helm?"
You are on the wrong side only if you try steering from in front of the wheel.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by PaulinOz

"Engine hours tell me its an ex-charter boat"

Boatman what do you think the average use of a charter boat up there in the North is.
Down here mine (L421) is out for bare boat charter aprox 200 days a year, and hours just coming up on 5 years are aprox 3,500.

So 1500 sounds low to me for a boat over 5 years old.

Maybe it's the Aussie charterers that are the ones motoring everywhere in cats without sails.

Although that would not explain why I am in the process of replacing the Main after 5 years of use.



There is an advantage to having more than one head, when it brakes down and it will you can repair it at your leisure, or cannibalize an unused one for parts to fix the main use one.

L400 is a fine boat, you know what the next step is it involves travel and a survey good luck and enjoy the ride.

"Is there a 'wrong side' for a helm?"
You are on the wrong side only if you try steering from in front of the wheel.

If its a Med charter boat the seasons are shorter and contrary to the BVI's its not a mad dash from one drinking hole to the next.
Mine was a BVI boat and after 5yrs it was the high 3K hrs.. not that that affected my decision.. Yanmars are good engines.
If the Greek Isles.. who wants to rush around.. Europeans don't do the mad culture vulture dash that Aussies and Yanks seem obsessed with.. we save that **** for cheap weekend city breaks with EasyJet and Ryanair..
Sun and sea is lazy, hazy days.. relax..
Wrong side only counts for Yanks.. the same as their cars and navigation marks...

[AZ_Zoner]

I’m just finishing up insurance on my 2011 L400. I have found a range of 3800 to 5800 annually, most difference is dependent on what we want to do in the hurricane season.
Our engine hours are at 900 and this has just been an owners boat in the Caribbean.


Craig

[rabbi]

I'd prefer the two head layout, even for cabin charter. The 4 head version has just too small heads to shower inside, which you will want to do in the Med outside the prime summer time.

other than that the 400 is a nice boat. The price is very low and there will be some reason for this. these reasons may not be related to the boat, maybe just a divorce or something.


I don't know your background but things to consider with your plans beyond buying the boat: what you are planning to do is cabin charter. 'contributing guest' are paying guest and in most European countries this is a business that needs special consideration (licenses, taxes, codes to follow, expensive equipment, yearly checks, local charter company required, etc).
Also think about taxes, both local VAT on the charter and your income tax.

If you plan to do it under cover think twice. Both locals and other cabin charter vendors will know what you are doing and won't like you to take their business. Professional vendors don't like 'private' cabin charter offers as these have much lower costs, don't pay taxes, etc.

Also know the requirements for having VAT paid on the boat. Even charter boats registered on a charter company may be required to have VAT paid if the ultimate owner uses it. Some countries have strict rules about that. Every country you pass can impose it's own interpretation of the EU rules, unless the boat is clearly VAT paid.

Is this the one in Sukosan/ Croatia? If so do your own due diligence on title and ownership, especially if the deal includes the local charter company that owns the boat. Plenty of additional possible pitfalls with buying a business in a foreign country (ownership, title, liens, company debt, pending contracts, pending fines, etc).

all this is No problem if you follow the rules and know the local regulations and language but can be a major headache otherwise.

If you depend on the charter income to fund and run the boat I'd suggest this is a recipe for disaster. This is no cheapo boat and you will need to keep enough cash for whatever mishap happens. The charter income can only add a bit to the cruising kitty.

Your insurance budget seems a bit high, the maintenance budget sounds OK but you are missing the mooring costs. Can be anything between 5000 and 25000 per year depending on the country you want to keep the boat. If its Croatia it will be a 5 digits figure for sure.

last thing: running charter is not necessarily fun. it's work, paying guests have expectations. if you haven't done this yourself before please talk to several folks who have done it. It's good for some but not so much for others.

all I want to say is: know what you are getting yourself into or you could have a very bumpy ride! This is a business and can have very expensive pitfalls.
IF you really know what you are getting into it can be a blast!

I don't want to sound like a naysayers but buying a privately owned VAT paid boat for personal cruising is much easier than what you are planning to do.

[rabbi]

there certainly are no privately owned lagoon 400 for under 200k that are still afloat. even for a charter boat the price is good.

[MadCat]

Trying to see if i know how to do this and fill in my answers...

Originally Posted by rabbi

I'd prefer the two head layout, even for cabin charter. The 4 head version has just too small heads to shower inside, which you will want to do in the Med outside the prime summer time. Good point, I'm looking at other versions as well. Not stuck on the 4 head version... Definitely like the real bathroom on the 3 cabin

other than that the 400 is a nice boat. The price is very low and there will be some reason for this. these reasons may not be related to the boat, maybe just a divorce or something.


I don't know your background but things to consider with your plans beyond buying the boat: what you are planning to do is cabin charter. 'contributing guest' are paying guest and in most European countries this is a business that needs special consideration (licenses, taxes, codes to follow, expensive equipment, yearly checks, local charter company required, etc).
Also think about taxes, both local VAT on the charter and your income tax.

If you plan to do it under cover think twice. Both locals and other cabin charter vendors will know what you are doing and won't like you to take their business. Professional vendors don't like 'private' cabin charter offers as these have much lower costs, don't pay taxes, etc. I realize this, but prefer this route than the above. After all these are friends we're talking about and paying for food, fuel etc. would be tough to call charter. If we were mooring in just one place I feel this may be a bigger issue, but since we plan to really spread out I don't see the individuals or companies taking notice.

Also know the requirements for having VAT paid on the boat. Even charter boats registered on a charter company may be required to have VAT paid if the ultimate owner uses it. Some countries have strict rules about that. Every country you pass can impose it's own interpretation of the EU rules, unless the boat is clearly VAT paid.VAT is not paid, I am not an EU citizen and I plan on forming an LLC in DE and transferring the title upon purchase

Is this the one in Sukosan/ Croatia? If so do your own due diligence on title and ownership, especially if the deal includes the local charter company that owns the boat. Plenty of additional possible pitfalls with buying a business in a foreign country (ownership, title, liens, company debt, pending contracts, pending fines, etc). Yes, you're spot on! The charter company was created apparently to avoid paying VAT but the people that came on board were just friends and they kept logs detailing and paid necessary taxes (so they say.)

all this is No problem if you follow the rules and know the local regulations and language but can be a major headache otherwise.

If you depend on the charter income to fund and run the boat I'd suggest this is a recipe for disaster. This is no cheapo boat and you will need to keep enough cash for whatever mishap happens. The charter income can only add a bit to the cruising kitty.The way I see it, one week a month of friends will cover costs, all but something major - which I realize, you never know

Your insurance budget seems a bit high, the maintenance budget sounds OK but you are missing the mooring costs. Can be anything between 5000 and 25000 per year depending on the country you want to keep the boat. If its Croatia it will be a 5 digits figure for sure.That's the thing, I didn't include on here but in my spreadsheet I figured an average of $700/mo,I realize that's low but plan on not keeping the cat in one place, want to spend time in the waters of Greece, Croatia, Montenegro, Turkey

last thing: running charter is not necessarily fun. it's work, paying guests have expectations. if you haven't done this yourself before please talk to several folks who have done it. It's good for some but not so much for others. I understand this well as I have been the fussy paying crew member giving grief many times! I have not run a yacht charter but in my previous years I worked in the private jet charter sector and was on call 24/7 with angry customers. Not saying it was fun, but I feel I can handle it

all I want to say is: know what you are getting yourself into or you could have a very bumpy ride! This is a business and can have very expensive pitfalls.
IF you really know what you are getting into it can be a blast!

I don't want to sound like a naysayers but buying a privately owned VAT paid boat for personal cruising is much easier than what you are planning to do.Mentioned above about registering in Delaware and not being a EU passport holder.

Thanks to you and everyone for the help, much appreciated!

[rabbi]

OK, so VAT is no problem for the first 18month of the boat within EU tax territories. Depending on your passport you may only have 6 month per year in the whole Schengen area. I don't know the exakt regulations, I am EU resident.

As for the paying guests... if you have changing crews every other week, this will get you into trouble.

Officials will notice every crew change, as you are required to issue crew list updates in many countries. You are trying to play tricks on the locals, and this is the easiest way to pi** them off. You won't make many local friends this way.

After your first encounter with the Guardia di Finanza you may find your boat on the chain in a filthy fishing port for months where you will have plenty of time to explain your views on cabin charter to them.

OK, enough on that.



If you are really determined to do the cabin charter your guests will enojoy the 4 heads.
The 3 cabin version has an oversized shower & office space, and that is wasted if you run cabin charter. Unless you can rent office space
The shower is really mostly useful in the off-season. During season we mostly shower off after every swim, so rarely use the inside shower.
The 4cabin / 2 head layout may be a compromise but seems to be rare.

The boat in Sukosan looks really nice. I haven't seen it in person but checked all info I could find about it, and have a couple of photos. For my family use it has the wrong layout.
As far as I understand they have used it only for cabin charter, with one of the two owners on board. They have a website but it looks like they did not have much business, so most guests are friends & family. So wear and tear should be similar to one with private use only. At 1200hrs she should be much like new.
If I were in the market for this layout this boat would be on top of my list.


If you want a direct contact to the owners of the Lagoon 400 in Sukosan: The boat name is "hopla!", so if you try and google "Lagoon 400 hopla!" ...

[MadCat]

Follow-up

Originally Posted by rabbi

OK, so VAT is no problem for the first 18month of the
boat within EU tax territories. Depending on your passport you may only have 6 month per year in the whole Schengen area. I don't know the exakt regulations, I am EU resident.

As for the paying guests... if you have changing crews every other week, this will get you into trouble.

Officials will notice every crew change, as you are required to issue crew list updates in many countries. You are trying to play tricks on the locals, and this is the easiest way to pi** them off. You won't make many local friends this way.

After your first encounter with the Guardia di Finanza you may find your boat on the chain in a filthy fishing port for months where you will have plenty of time to explain your views on cabin charter to them.

OK, enough on that.
Not trying to piss of any locals, but as a Canadian with a US flag registered boat that intends to sail around with friends on and off throughout the summer and then eventually sailing to the Carribean when the season dies down I don't see what wrong we would be doing. From my research non EU flagged boats can run charter trips from EU waters as well, if it only comes down to having our friends pay VAT on their contribution - that's not a problem.


If you are really determined to do the cabin charter your guests will enojoy the 4 heads.
The 3 cabin version has an oversized shower & office space, and that is wasted if you run cabin charter. Unless you can rent office space
The shower is really mostly useful in the off-season. During season we mostly shower off after every swim, so rarely use the inside shower.
The 4cabin / 2 head layout may be a compromise but seems to be rare.
Haven't seen any 4 cab/2 head versions and definitely not in my price range. I think the 4/4 is best also for my intended use

The boat in Sukosan looks really nice. I haven't seen it in person but checked all info I could find about it, and have a couple of photos. For my family use it has the wrong layout.
As far as I understand they have used it only for cabin charter, with one of the two owners on board. They have a website but it looks like they did not have much business, so most guests are friends & family. So wear and tear should be similar to one with private use only. At 1200hrs she should be much like new.
If I were in the market for this layout this boat would be on top of my list.


If you want a direct contact to the owners of the Lagoon 400 in Sukosan: The boat name is "hopla!", so if you try and google "Lagoon 400 hopla!" ... Found it, thanks for the tip! I'll let you know what happens

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by MadCat

Not trying to piss of any locals, but as a Canadian with a US flag registered boat that intends to sail around with friends on and off throughout the summer and then eventually sailing to the Carribean when the season dies down I don't see what wrong we would be doing. From my research non EU flagged boats can run charter trips from EU waters as well, if it only comes down to having our friends pay VAT on their contribution - that's not a problem.

It all depends on the number of crew changes and if you keep a low profile.

Croatia for example has a hard limit for crewchanges, something like twice the number of bunks per year. One more is already commercial charter.

Once commercial talk about VAT, flag requirements, licenses, work permit, local safety inspections, etc. A ton of country specific paperwork, and typically expensive.

[Titch71]

Hi was in a similar position last year. I ended up sourcing a boat in Turkey was a lot easier then the Croation regulations. Is it flagged Croation? If so could be a pain. Engine hours indicate a charter boat I did 100ish hours last year as a guide.