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Old 23-12-2019, 17:45   #76
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Re: Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out

These guys, and a number of other similar vendors, could solve the problem with a proper metal hatch. They make custom hatches too, so could fab a drop in solution.

http://anchorhatches.com/products/ag...lease-hatches/
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Old 24-12-2019, 00:11   #77
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Re: Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out

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You asked in the wrong country.


Iím sure there places that would do the work, it was just interesting the response I got from a non-American yard (Antigua).
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Old 24-12-2019, 00:20   #78
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Re: Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
These guys, and a number of other similar vendors, could solve the problem with a proper metal hatch. They make custom hatches too, so could fab a drop in solution.

http://anchorhatches.com/products/ag...lease-hatches/


I think it is less about the material than how it is joined to the hull. In the lagoon case, their choice of glass eliminated one problem (the rubber seal which leaked) and created a new one which is the joint to the hull. The FP (and others hatch) has a good connection to the hull, but has issues with both rubber seal and the lens to frame connection. They now offer an all metal hatch which might eliminate to lens connection to the frame, but would still have the rubber seal which could still leak. A lot is being asked of these hatches given their size and proximity to the water line.
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Old 24-12-2019, 04:52   #79
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Re: Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out

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I think it is less about the material than how it is joined to the hull. In the lagoon case, their choice of glass eliminated one problem (the rubber seal which leaked) and created a new one which is the joint to the hull. The FP (and others hatch) has a good connection to the hull, but has issues with both rubber seal and the lens to frame connection. They now offer an all metal hatch which might eliminate to lens connection to the frame, but would still have the rubber seal which could still leak. A lot is being asked of these hatches given their size and proximity to the water line.
Yes, that is why my preference is to eliminate them. Ive never seen them do anything except swamp boats...there are many paths of exit on most catamarans...most have a big deck hatch in each cabin which would be a viable exit during capsize or just make for the main salon and exit the cockpit doors. Many FPs have these hatches in a midship head...how is that better than the other options? You still gotta find your way to the head while upside down, likely in the dark...no thanks, I will just take the nearest exit...there are already a multitude to choose from on most cats.

The opening variety are nice for ventilation at anchor during snotty weather, but sooner or later someone will forget to close them...and swamp another boat.

A leaky seal is still way better than a lens popping out or a piece of tempered glass which could shatter completely.

And manufacturers cheap out on the hatch they use...its not like most of these are a beefy hatch...just a standard light duty deck hatch!


The fear of capsize is an interesting phenomena, monohulls can sink catastrophically in seconds, yet there is no emergency exit system from below decks...and people die in catastrophic downflooding events...its rare to hear of anyone dying as a direct result of a capsize. (Note: this is not a mono vs cat dig, just an observation of the differences).
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Old 24-12-2019, 04:57   #80
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Re: Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out

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Iím sure there places that would do the work, it was just interesting the response I got from a non-American yard (Antigua).
Yes, but almost all of the E Carib islands are somehow affiliated with 1st world countries. Antigua is a commonwealth country so in theory there is still legal recourse. But my understanding is that liability judgements are far more limited under Commonwealth law than the crazy awards made under USA law. Still, no one wants to invite litigation.

Unlike here in the W Carib where you can do most anything you want inexpensively, but you have no effective legal recourse...so no one worries much about being sued.
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Old 24-12-2019, 05:59   #81
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Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
.... monohulls can sink catastrophically in seconds, yet there is no emergency exit system from below decks...and people die in catastrophic downflooding events...its rare to hear of anyone dying as a direct result of a capsize. (Note: this is not a mono vs cat dig, just an observation of the differences).


Interesting- can you share a reference of account of a catastrophic and sudden sinking of a mono with people dying in down flooding?

Short of a keel falling off itís really tough to have enough water coming in to sink most monos quickly. Which is why itís great monos donít have an escape hatch because the combination of that large a hole and the keel would sink them very quickly
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Old 24-12-2019, 06:21   #82
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Re: Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out

Actually, no its not. Ive twice seen boats sink during a broach when a cockpit lazerette came open...that big open hatch moves a LOT of water. Both happened during races rounding the windward mark and then popping the chute in breezy conditions, both boats broached and sunk in moments. This can also happen if you bury the bow and that nice big forward hatch is not secured properly. Ive come very close to witnessing that first hand when driving a boat a bit too hard under spinnaker in sporty conditions.

Both of the above are examples of "down flooding"...one way to sink a monohull of any size (from dinghy to ship) very fast.

I dont know of any documentation of loss by down flooding of small boats, but have witnessed first hand...fortunately in those cases w no loss of life.

Knock a big enough hole in any mono and it will go down fast. See Steve Callahan's "Adrift" for a well known documented case. Plenty of other documented cases of holed monos going down fast.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Callahan

"Tall Ships Down" presents case studies of the loses of traditional sailing vessels in modern times...most by down flooding. Loss of life in most of these...in some cases the whole crew. Same principal applies in any monohull.

https://www.amazon.com/Tall-Ships-Do.../dp/007143545X
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Old 24-12-2019, 17:27   #83
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Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out

True- lots of stuff happens in racing monos as you reference, just like racing cats can flip quickly with dangerous or deadly consequences.
Iím not convinced of the risk you mention in a knockdown with a well prepared mono. Just like a well prepared cruising cat should rarely if ever have a chance of flipping.
I donít think there are a lot of parallels between the boats we sail and traditional ships with internal moveable ballast like you reference

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Old 24-12-2019, 17:34   #84
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Re: Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out

Video of Lagoon 38 escape hatches underway offshore in benign conditions...would make me even more nervous in rough conditions. On the 38 they are located in the aft cabins...heaviest part of the boat most likely to be underwater...making them even more silly.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xqlac3pz6h...60509.mp4?dl=0

Upside to this video is that we had these kind of conditions all the way from Bermuda to Azores...a very nice ride!
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Old 24-12-2019, 17:38   #85
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Re: Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out

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True- lots of stuff happens in racing monos as you reference, just like racing cats can flip quickly with dangerous or deadly consequences.
Iím not convinced of the risk you mention in a knockdown with a well prepared mono. Just like a well prepared cruising cat should rarely if ever have a chance of flipping.
I donít think there are a lot of parallels between the boats we sail and traditional ships with internal moveable ballast like you reference

Merry Christmas!
Yes, its a different game if racing and often on very different boats than if cruising too. I agree statistically a small risk for either cruising cats or monos, but a relative possibility in either case.

There was a member here a few years back who crunched NTSB loss data and found that losses were about the same for cats & monos.
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Old 25-12-2019, 06:29   #86
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Re: Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out

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Yes, its a different game if racing and often on very different boats than if cruising too. I agree statistically a small risk for either cruising cats or monos, but a relative possibility in either case.

There was a member here a few years back who crunched NTSB loss data and found that losses were about the same for cats & monos.


Yup- Both monos and cats are pretty equally safe by most stats out there. Each has drawbacks and merits! Happy sailing
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Old 25-12-2019, 06:35   #87
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Re: Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Video of Lagoon 38 escape hatches underway offshore in benign conditions...would make me even more nervous in rough conditions. On the 38 they are located in the aft cabins...heaviest part of the boat most likely to be underwater...making them even more silly.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xqlac3pz6h...60509.mp4?dl=0

Upside to this video is that we had these kind of conditions all the way from Bermuda to Azores...a very nice ride!


Yikes. I mean really cool view but I would want that glass in proper double through bolted frames, ship porthole style. No wonder that can swamp a cat quickly
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Old 02-01-2020, 05:28   #88
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Re: Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out

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I suspect you are right. There was nothing on the hatches that failed identifying them, nor on the replacement hatches that came directly from Lagoon. ( replacements looked identical). I asked MultiTech, who did the insurance repair, if they could determine the manufacturer but no joy.
Yea, we had ab out $100k worth of work done by MultiTech -- to our Fountain Pajot -- and it didn't work out so well. I'd recommend that you keep a VERY close eye on the work done by them.
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Old 02-01-2020, 08:54   #89
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Re: Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
The fear of capsize is an interesting phenomena, monohulls can sink catastrophically in seconds, yet there is no emergency exit system from below decks...and people die in catastrophic downflooding events...its rare to hear of anyone dying as a direct result of a capsize. (Note: this is not a mono vs cat dig, just an observation of the differences).
This is not a mono vs cat dig (as you mentioned), but the monohulls have escape hatches at least over the main staterooms. These are the larger deck hatches. They are large enough so that an average person can fit through. Monohulls tend to return upright due to the keel weight.

Catamarans have same sized hatches for evacuation in case of fire, flooding, or whatever else. These hatches are mentioned in the Owner's manual.
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Old 02-01-2020, 08:57   #90
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Re: Lagoon Escape Hatches Falling Out

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This is not a mono vs cat dig (as you mentioned), but the monohulls have escape hatches at least over the main staterooms. These are the larger deck hatches. They are large enough so that an average person can fit through. Catamarans have same sized hatches for evacuation in case of fire, flooding, or whatever else. These hatches are mentioned in the Owner's manual.
Yes, cats typically have them over each cabin and the main salon...another reason I think the escape hatches are silly.
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