500: Lagoon 500 Nearly Sunk

[Palarran]

Did any of you actually read the outcome? The owner lost the case, got counter-sued, and had to declare bankruptcy. Wow, way to add insult to injury.

When you buy a boat and it's supposed to come with "water-tight bulkheads" you would expect them to be, but apparently not. Now, I remember this sinking very clearly because right after it I examined my bulkheads and found the exact same holes drilled through them. Two tubes of silicone solved that problem but many others are still in danger of thinking they have positive flotation from bulkheads and don't.

In regards to running over the dingy painter, in an absolutely stupid moment last year I did the same thing. It didn't tear out my shaft though. Really, should that be possible? It sure is but you would expect the engine to stall first.

[chris07732]

Fascinating reading the case details. Not really clear who pushed to publish them. Whomever did, has done the rest of us a service. The owner comes off poorly represented in the latter stages of his ordeal, for sure. What maritime lawyer would let client start an arbitration case that had timed out before the case was filed.

[Emmalina]

At this point I think everybody with a lagoon should buy some expanding sealant and get busy ........ I think anybody who has cruised enough will admit to chomping thier painter..... Didn't know saildrives were so flimsy though.. Stick with my shaft drive thanks

[colemj]

The problem with that Lagoon's saildrives is that they are mounted far aft - behind the rudders and well up the stern rocker. This design decision begs for a dinghy painter to suck into the prop - there is nothing before it, and the prop is only inches from the back of the stern end. An owner of such a boat should be aware of this and NEVER tow the dingy unless it is tied to the hip. Even a floating painter won't help with this type of design.

Mark

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by colemj

The problem with that Lagoon's saildrives is that they are mounted far aft - behind the rudders and well up the stern rocker. This design decision begs for a dinghy painter to suck into the prop - there is nothing before it, and the prop is only inches from the back of the stern end. An owner of such a boat should be aware of this and NEVER tow the dingy unless it is tied to the hip. Even a floating painter won't help with this type of design.

Mark

Even on a 50 footer? Wow, what a poor design.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Did any of you actually read the outcome? The owner lost the case, got counter-sued, and had to declare bankruptcy. Wow, way to add insult to injury.

When you buy a boat and it's supposed to come with "water-tight bulkheads" you would expect them to be, but apparently not. Now, I remember this sinking very clearly because right after it I examined my bulkheads and found the exact same holes drilled through them. Two tubes of silicone solved that problem but many others are still in danger of thinking they have positive flotation from bulkheads and don't.

In regards to running over the dingy painter, in an absolutely stupid moment last year I did the same thing. It didn't tear out my shaft though. Really, should that be possible? It sure is but you would expect the engine to stall first.

I can't believe they are relying on the adhesion of silicone to PVC pipe for a seal which may potentially have to keep the boat afloat. That's just madness to me. I couldn't sleep at night even if they sanded the inside of the pipe first and used Plexus.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Emmalina

At this point I think everybody with a lagoon should buy some expanding sealant and get busy ........ I think anybody who has cruised enough will admit to chomping thier painter..... Didn't know saildrives were so flimsy though.. Stick with my shaft drive thanks

I think one of the main issues here is that the boat clearly does not have positive floatation, though it is advertised as such. It should have floated, even with the bulkhead failed. Instead it filled to the deck head, and the skipper said he was certain it would have sunk to the bottom in deeper water. Quite plausible given the number of Lagoons we've seen sink in the last year. People are spending a fortune on these boats on the assumption they have positive floatation, very revealing that Lagoon refused to release the figures on this even when ordered to by the court. If I was a potential Lagoon buyer, I would certainly not consider signing a check until I'd seen those tables, and a whole lot more.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by minaret

I can't believe they are relying on the adhesion of silicone to PVC pipe for a seal which may potentially have to keep the boat afloat. That's just madness to me. I couldn't sleep at night even if they sanded the inside of the pipe first and used Plexus.

With all due respect, you must not sleep much. I do HVAC work as a trade. We use about a thousand of tubes of silicone per year. If you fill a 2" pipe with silicone there is no - no - no way it is going to come out. Could a small amount of water leak by, yes. But it would be very small. Really, think about it for a moment. This I guarantee, period.

[cruiz9]

Fasinating story and i feel for every production boat owner, hopefully Lagoon has done something to address the issue,though i suspect not.
One thing i allways noticed when walking thru production cats at boat shows is that the floorboards in the hulls allways creaked when walked on ,something i was not used to in my boat,to create extra storage they have used the hulls as virtual open bilges . The bilges on my boat are designed to be totally sealed, virtually a double bottom running 80% of the lenght of each hull, you could run on to a reef and rip the bottom of the boat out and still sail to safety. Looking back at the plans there are 32 watertight compartments thru the boat.

[roetter]

Originally Posted by colemj

The problem with that Lagoon's saildrives is that they are mounted far aft - behind the rudders and well up the stern rocker. ...

Mark

Not all Lagoons. I just was at the Bordeaux factory to see the 52 production. The rudders are aft of the sail drives. Each rudder has it's own hydraulic ram.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Palarran

With all due respect, you must not sleep much. I do HVAC work as a trade. We use about a thousand of tubes of silicone per year. If you fill a 2" pipe with silicone there is no - no - no way it is going to come out. Could a small amount of water leak by, yes. But it would be very small. Really, think about it for a moment. This I guarantee, period.

Oh, I've thought about it. Fill that compartment with water and the amount of pressure on that pipe full of silicone is substantial. No bond is bad. Why wouldn't they use glass tube properly bonded in to the bulkhead and filled with a better adhesive? Silicone is a joke. Glass tube is cheap, wouldn't cost them much more to do it right. Nothing sticks to PVC. The bond to it will fail, both between the tube and the bulkhead and between the tube and the silicone. I bet they didn't even sand it.

[Emmalina]

Originally Posted by minaret

Oh, I've thought about it. Fill that compartment with water and the amount of pressure on that pipe full of silicone is substantial. No bond is bad. Why wouldn't they use glass tube properly bonded in to the bulkhead and filled with a better adhesive? Silicone is a joke. Glass tube is cheap, wouldn't cost them much more to do it right. Nothing sticks to PVC. The bond to it will fail, both between the tube and the bulkhead and between the tube and the silicone. I bet they didn't even sand it.

Accountants now build boats not boatbuilders and glass work is expensive on a production basis... Whats the term I keep hearing .. plastic fantastic etc etc.

[dirkdig]

Our 440 which was built in 2005 has all the bulkhead penetrations sealed fully.
The rear of the boat across the back and engine rooms are sealed at every point to prevent this happenening.
I just replaced a gear cable and had to cut out the expanding foam seal which was about 3 inches deep to get the new one through and the old one out.

I admit i have sucked in ropes and lines several times from the dingy line to hanlines towing lures.
Every time the engine stopped.

Then its time for a swim!

[monte]

I read this and can't find any fault of Lagoon, or the broker, or the insurance company. It sucks for the owner but. The damage was caused primarily by bad seamanship (towing a dinghy)
Lagoons generally have a pipe running from the engine compartment to the bilge with a seacock at the bilge end. This should be left open to clear any small anounts of water in the engine compartment. The bilge pump will take care of it unless it is a large hole or blown raw water hose or similar. In that case the seacock should be closed. So the question is, did the skipper close the seacock when the bilge pump couldn't keep up? It states (in the translated version of his report) that he did. But if he didn't it would have been easy to open the next day for insurance purposes by himself or by the owner. Why would he leave the boat overnight? he could have continued to remove the water from the damaged hull, made temporary repairs. Lots of unanswered questions on that site and a one sided point of view.
Also did you notice the insurance deductable is around $80K. Whats up with that?! that must be close to 20% of hull value. Mine is closer to 1%. The owner couldn't afford the boat, he tried to back out of the deal after he bought it. He couldn't afford the insurance and couldn't afford to pay the deductable and probably couldn't afford to pay a decent skipper (yes the dinghy painter was 38mm jib sheet!)
And yes its heartbreaking but why try to blame, with such an effort of the web page, the builder, the broker and the insurance company?

[dirkdig]

Originally Posted by monte

I read this and can't find any fault of Lagoon, or the broker, or the insurance company. It sucks for the owner but. The damage was caused primarily by bad seamanship (towing a dinghy) Lagoons generally have a pipe running from the engine compartment to the bilge with a seacock at the bilge end. This should be left open to clear any small anounts of water in the engine compartment. The bilge pump will take care of it unless it is a large hole or blown raw water hose or similar. In that case the seacock should be closed. So the question is, did the skipper close the seacock when the bilge pump couldn't keep up? It states (in the translated version of his report) that he did. But if he didn't it would have been easy to open the next day for insurance purposes by himself or by the owner. Why would he leave the boat overnight? he could have continued to remove the water from the damaged hull, made temporary repairs. Lots of unanswered questions on that site and a one sided point of view. Also did you notice the insurance deductable is around $80K. Whats up with that?! that must be close to 20% of hull value. Mine is closer to 1%. The owner couldn't afford the boat, he tried to back out of the deal after he bought it. He couldn't afford the insurance and couldn't afford to pay the deductable and probably couldn't afford to pay a decent skipper (yes the dinghy painter was 38mm jib sheet!) And yes its heartbreaking but why try to blame, with such an effort of the web page, the builder, the broker and the insurance company?

Well said.
I thought the excess was a bit strange to at $88,000.
Its not as if it was a dirt cheap policy either.

Wonder what the boats up to now?