450: Lagoon 450 and Helia 44 Comparison

[boom23]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

FP uses NO balsa anywhere on their boats. Foam core on hull sides and top deck. Solid fiberglass below the water line

Ask FP...

[boom23]

Well... after a lot of consideration, we signed a purchase contract on a new 2012 Lagoon 450. My wife and I are very excited!

As you may know, we visited the FP and Lagoon factories in France and sailed both Cats. In addition, I exhaustively searched the Internet for FP/Helia (as the Helia is newer model) and Lagoon 440/450 comments/problems/etc. In my opinion, the Lagoon 450 comes on top. It may not be as fast, or pretty for some, but it feels better and my wife likes it. I believe the Lagoon construction quality is better. Also, in our opinion, much more overall design and livability thought has been put into the Lagoon.

Regarding the speed debate, there should be two lines of catamarans, a performance and a cruising/comfort line. Trying to mix these attributes is not easy. We decided that the cruising/comfort aspect was more important to us.

Regarding the boom height debate, I am not crazy about the Helia idea of having sitting/lounging area within striking height of the boom. It is an accident waiting to happen. Either there should be no sitting/lounging area on the roof, or the boom should be higher. I prefer the boom to be higher as the view from the top is amazing. Again, that's my opinion.

Let the sailing begin!!!

[bryguy67]

My wife and I are just SUPER excited for you guys! You are about 2 steps ahead of us with the same major decisons. Today's cats are so awesome...I don't think there is a "bad" decision that you could have made. Best of luck to you and hope that we share an anchorage in the future.

[yeloya]

Well I am one of few person to have sailed both of them.. To make long story short:
L450 has clearly more space, probably 8 women out of 10 would choose L450 over Helia, has front seating area that Helia doesn't have. Drawbacks are; impossible to see the aft of the boat when you dock /undock. Given very hich windage compared to Helia, believe me , these manoeuvres are not fun at all,particularly in tight places. The one we have has a rear camera (don't know if it's optional or standard)but to be honnest docking with camera is even more confusing. High boom, isolated fly bridge is not my taste; I find it very dangereous and I would never go offshore with this boat. (I have 16.000 nm of offshore / ocean sailing experience with catamarans) Nevertheless, for coastal sailings, it's probably the best cat around.

Helia sails like a dream.. I am not talking only about speed, but sits on water very well and it's very predictable under sail. The build quality has nothing to do with outgoing Orana and is now significantly better than L 450. Aft cabins seems to be a bit tighter than L450, front cabins same if not slightly larger than L450. Helm station is perfectly positioned both for keeping under control every part of the boat under sail and when docking. This is particularly important for those who are navigating with their kids and peds..The major drawback of Helia is the sharp corners everywhere in the saloon. I find this very dangereous on offshore passages.
İn short, if sailing is not the yr first attribute when chosing which boat to buy and you will mostly sail short distances go for L450. Otherwise, I would call for Helia.
Balsa core, etc are useless and academic discussions; won't make any good to you.
Regarding osmosis issue, I have never heard of any Lagoon with osmosis issue. FP had quite a bit this problem, seems that recent boats are less vulnerable and my guess is that with Helia this issue is over.
L450 had a big commercial success and now it seems that FP is booked until October 2013 with Helia orders and the launch price is already increased by 3%.
Is this at the expense of L450 sales or the market is expanding ? Time will show us..

Cheers

Yeloya

[careka]

Yeloya
Regarding osmosis issue, I have never heard of any Lagoon with osmosis issue. FP had quite a bit this problem, seems that recent boats are less vulnerable and my guess is that with Helia this issue is over.
-----------
that is what i also was told back many years ago. but FP boats are still popping up with osmosis. They told me that the Lavezzi was OK afther hull #105, but i know now that there are newer once that has it to. and Oranas. So to me it looks like FP has not done anything at al with it.
Thats why i did not get a FP.
its a shame....... FP boats looks good. and sails well. but has less space inside. in hulls

[boom23]

Last year, I visited the FP and the Lagoon factories to see the Helia and the Lagoon 450. One thing that FP does not talk about is that they use Balsa on the Helia hulls, all the way to the keel. They still use foam on the superstructure. Lagoon stops the balsa at the water line. I examined both boats at the factory myself. The balsa use on the Helia scared me. On the positive side is that FP said that they use Vinylester resin, which is supposed to be more osmosis resistant. Several US companies, like Viking and I believe Tiara, are doing this successfully.

So, there is hope that the Helia will be OK. Unfortunately, FP does not have a good track record with osmosis and I do not want to be a test case. This was one of the reasons I chose Lagoon...

Regarding how far ahead FP is booked with the Helia, FP builds about 20 Helia's a year while Lagoon builds about 100 450's. There is no comparison in volume. Visit both factories and you will see what I mean.

Regarding seaworthiness, just look at how many Lagoons cross the oceans compared to FP's. Also, look at how many Lagoons have had structural problems compared to FP's.

It is not my intention to bash FP or the Helia. The Helia is a very nice boat and I hope FP sells lots of them. In my opinion, FP seems to be on the right track but, personally, I will not be convinced until the Helia proves itself.

Originally Posted by careka

that is what i also was told back many years ago. but FP boats are still popping up with osmosis. They told me that the Lavezzi was OK afther hull #105, but i know now that there are newer once that has it to. and Oranas. So to me it looks like FP has not done anything at al with it.
Thats why i did not get a FP.
its a shame....... FP boats looks good. and sails well. but has less space inside. in hulls

[Cotemar]

Helia 44 is solid fiberglass under the waterline. Foam core above the water line.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

Helia 44 is solid fiberglass under the waterline. Foam core above the water line.

Visit the factory (yourself), look at the Helia hull and then let us know what you saw. I was not alone at the factory when I saw what I saw. It was confirmed by other people who were with me, including FP people.

You can believe whatever you want...

[Gordon]

Hi Boom23,
I would just like to correct your information you have posted above. This was information from FP.

In the new Helia, and all other FP's moving forward, the end grain balsa goes down to slightly below the waterline exactly the same as on your Orana but Balsa and not Foam for the core. This is exactly the same as Lagoon. The underwater surface is monolithic fiberglass (solid) and does not have a balsa or foam core as suggested. The only change from previous FP's including your Orana, is the change from foam to end grain balsa. The FP yard made the decision due to improved technology around the infusion process making end grain balsa a superior product, plus with the increasing environmental concerns making foam a far less attractive product.


Here's a link to some independent expert opinions on core technologies which you might find interesting.....
http://www.schionningdesigns.com.au/www/page.cfm?pageID=95

Regards Gordon.

[aclmck]

Originally Posted by boom23

Last year, I visited the FP and the Lagoon factories to see the Helia and the Lagoon 450. One thing that FP does not talk about is that they use Balsa on the Helia hulls, all the way to the keel. They still use foam on the superstructure. Lagoon stops the balsa at the water line. I examined both boats at the factory myself. The balsa use on the Helia scared me. On the positive side is that FP said that they use Vinylester resin, which is supposed to be more osmosis resistant. Several US companies, like Viking and I believe Tiara, are doing this successfully.

So, there is hope that the Helia will be OK. Unfortunately, FP does not have a good track record with osmosis and I do not want to be a test case. This was one of the reasons I chose Lagoon...

Regarding how far ahead FP is booked with the Helia, FP builds about 20 Helia's a year while Lagoon builds about 100 450's. There is no comparison in volume. Visit both factories and you will see what I mean.

Regarding seaworthiness, just look at how many Lagoons cross the oceans compared to FP's. Also, look at how many Lagoons have had structural problems compared to FP's.

It is not my intention to bash FP or the Helia. The Helia is a very nice boat and I hope FP sells lots of them. In my opinion, FP seems to be on the right track but, personally, I will not be convinced until the Helia proves itself.

Hi Boom,
Exactly what are you referring to when you state that Fp have structural problems, i have searched the net and apart from some Osmosis issues (cosmetic Flaw) i cannot find any thing.

However i have observed photos of structual bulkheads (Lagoon) on a boat that have completely failed (i don't have knowledge on exactly how that happened but was told it took a wave to the beam) that same boat had the topsides part from the hull as well.

Obviously your "qualified obversation" at the factory appears flawed in that Fp are saying that the underwater area is Solid Glass.

it may not have been your intention to bash Fp but if you read your statement i think you will agree that you are.

Seeing you visited the factory did you also note that FP glass in all of the structual Bulkheads in the Helia Vs Lagoon use an adhesive /sealant to glue in its Bulkheads on the 45 these are worth noting But not stated

Both Lagoon and FP build a simular boat when you look closely Fp still do a lot more to ensure a seaworthy boat.

The simple fact is that many more lagoons exist than Fp that is why more cross the oceans but this fact hardly substaniates a better boat.

i will be buying a fp soon enough, however if i had to buy a lagoon it would't bother me either because once you know your boat limits, you use it within those limits.

I have Built a Schionning Boat using Duracore,End grain Balsa and west system epoxies, before building it i spent a year or so investigating it and the properties it posseses Balsa although some on this forum don't like is a very good product used as per the manufacturers specification. schionning and others have many success stories, but they can't prevent idiots using it and tarnishing its reputation.

[boom23]

Gordon/Aclmck, re-read what I wrote and how I wrote it. I have no intention to argue about it. At least, now it seems that I am half blind...

I will let the "qualified" people figure things out.

I hope FP is very successful with their boats. Competition is good for everyone.

Enjoy whatever you buy!

I will certainly enjoy my balsa-cored boat.

[Gordon]

Hi 'boom23'
Congratulations on becoming the proud owner of a Lagoon 450, a beautiful boat and am sure you will enjoy many happy sea mile sailing in her.
Where will you keep your boat, maybe we will be nearby on our return voyage back to Australia in the coming years, we intend to spend two summers sailing the Med. from May this year and then via USA to Australia, probably 2015.

Cheers Gordon.

[Lagoon4us]

Hi boom23 well done, exciting times for you both, hope we see you out there some time.

With regard to difficulty with view whilst backing up i have just finished fabricating an alloy pedestal that accomodates a set of engine and thruster controls onto the Port aft quarter, it's at the powder coaters tomorrow.

We have a camera that views the aft quarter BUT i don't like it either, this set-up will allow singlehanded backing in/docking if needs be.

Pictures will be posted soon.

Once again enjoy, you've done well.

Frank & Vivien 'DOMINOS'

[boom23]

Hi Gordon,

Congratulations on your boat too. Our original intent was to have factory delivery and cruise Europe for a year, or so. That plan got scrapped and now we are looking for other options... The good part is that we will have a sailboat in few months. Exciting times!

Originally Posted by Gordon

Hi 'boom23'
Congratulations on becoming the proud owner of a Lagoon 450, a beautiful boat and am sure you will enjoy many happy sea mile sailing in her.
Where will you keep your boat, maybe we will be nearby on our return voyage back to Australia in the coming years, we intend to spend two summers sailing the Med. from May this year and then via USA to Australia, probably 2015.

Cheers Gordon.

[boom23]

Lagoon4us, Thank you. I can't wait to start cruising!

On my ex-power boat (twin engines and bow thruster) I installed the YachtMaster remote control and I found it invaluable. I could single hand the boat under almost every conditions. I also had cockpit controls but I rarely used them.

Unfortunately, a YachtController-like control will not be effective on a Cat because it does not have throttle control. It can only put the engine IN/OUT of gear and turn ON/OFF the thrusters. While this is effective on a boat with large props that can push the boat at idle, it will not do much on a small prop sailboat. You should see me trying to dock the Lagoon for the first time...

I wish I could find a smaller version of the Ultraflex electronic controls that I could use with a long cable. I assume you have the factory installed electronic controls too.

I am waiting for your impression of your cockpit installed controls. They will certainly help with visibility.

I enjoy trying to improve things due to my computer engineering background...

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

Hi boom23 well done, exciting times for you both, hope we see you out there some time.

With regard to difficulty with view whilst backing up i have just finished fabricating an alloy pedestal that accomodates a set of engine and thruster controls onto the Port aft quarter, it's at the powder coaters tomorrow.

We have a camera that views the aft quarter BUT i don't like it either, this set-up will allow singlehanded backing in/docking if needs be.

Pictures will be posted soon.

Once again enjoy, you've done well.

Frank & Vivien 'DOMINOS'