440: Lagoon 440 Weight, Height, Flybridge

[AndyT]

Thanks Jimmy
Seems an interesting site
Regards
Andy

[lagoon100]

Hi
Lagoon states that the max tender for the Lagoon 440 is 280kg and 3.8m
Has anybody of you guys tried to put a 4.20m tender with a total off 360kg on it (40hp)?
Has anybody tried to reinforce the davits?

best regards

[Kaptain Ken]

Lagoon 100,

We have a new Lagoon 440 and struggled with this issue. A tender the size you are contemplating will not fit between the two hulls. The best option we found in a console tender was a Defender (www.defender.com) package of a Walker Bay Genesis Deluxe Console RIB (10'-2") with a 20 HP Honda, currently just under $11,000. The package weighs 420 lbs. (190 kg.), including a full (3 gal.) fuel tank.

As far as reinforcing the davits, I have seen two 440's with wire connections with adjustable turnbuckles running from the ends of the davits to the rear of the rigid top over the aft cockpit. If you would like to get in touch with me, I have several photo's of one of these installations. Our boat is set up to make the connection, but we opted not to complete it after our Catamaran Company dealer stated it would potentially void our warranty. Prior to doing any serious offshore sailing, we will complete the installation.

Best of Luck!!!

[sail4evr]

Hey Ken,
I would be interested in seeing the pics of the additional support for the davits. What I don't like about those guy wires is that you have to duck when crossing over.
Thanks,
Joe
Sea Of Love
L440 #76

[Mark424]

Originally Posted by Kaptain Ken

We have a new Lagoon 440 and struggled with this issue. A tender the size you are contemplating will not fit between the two hulls. The best option we found in a console tender was a Defender (www.defender.com) package of a Walker Bay Genesis Deluxe Console RIB (10'-2") with a 20 HP Honda, currently just under $11,000. The package weighs 420 lbs. (190 kg.), including a full (3 gal.) fuel tank.

I always wondered whether, especially with deep v, you could attach something like a rubber dock guard to one hull and manage with a longer tender. As far as weight goes, I've heard good things about the Lammina (AB inflatables - Models) lightweight aluminum models from AB inflatables, but you'd have to buy a generic console and have it installed (shouldn't be that bad). Also lots of folks like the Livingston tenders (Chesapeake Livingston Sales 202 431-5628), and they are friendly weight wise - nice stability and beam, but again in the smaller sizes you'd have to sort out your own console (not sure why the console from the 14' and 15' models couldn't be used). They aren't inflatables, but I've seen folks (including the Dashew's) use fenders as surrounds for hard sided tenders.

I like a dinghy that can be used for exploring far and wide, so would prefer to fit something more substantial when the time comes.

There is a thread around here somewhere about folks putting a small platform between the hulls and storing the dink on chocks instead of swinging from the davits. Another option if you are truly committed.

[Octopus]

Originally Posted by lagoon100

Hi
Lagoon states that the max tender for the Lagoon 440 is 280kg and 3.8m
Has anybody of you guys tried to put a 4.20m tender with a total off 360kg on it (40hp)?
Has anybody tried to reinforce the davits?

best regards

Lagoon quote the same restriction for the 420 and we completed an Atlantic Circuit with approximately 200kg strapped to our davits. I wouldn't want to sail with anything heavier. The length of our RIB (4.2m/14ft) was not a problem on the 420 (more of a problem on the 440, I think), but the weight was a concern, especially in heavy seas.

When on a passage, we also demounted the outboard (not easy, even with a 15hp outboard - 40hp would be almost impossible) and helped to support the davits with lines to the top of the bimini posts. In fact, on a passage we trussed the RIB up so it didn't move at all in any direction. You sure don't want 360kg swinging around at the stern.

I have seen two 440s with twisted davits, so the danger of damaging them with 360kg hanging off them is considerable.

My view is that sailing any kind of passage with 360kg hanging off the stern is asking for trouble. For a start, you want to minimise weight at the stern for safety and performance reason, so I think you'd be crazy. In calm conditions (and I mean calm), you would probably get away with it as a one-off.

Chris
Octopus, Lagoon 420 Hybrid
Isle of Arran, Scotland

[sail4evr]

Most 40hp ribs have a center console and hence are remote controlled. I would think unmounting and remounting other than seasonaly in a yard would be onerous. Also you aren't going to be hanging a 40hp engine off the stern pulpit without extra support.
The new 500s have higher davits which I think are a plus. I've considered a similar modificatiopn to mine to make it easier to get the extra height and keep the lower unit out of the water when the stern digs in. As it is now with the lifting bridles as short as reasonably possible, I have to crank the blocks up tight against each other in order to keep the engine's lower unit out of the water when underway and I think it is very stressfull on the blocks and lifting lines.
As for the center consoles, if you build your own rib there are two models, one called a euro helm St. Croix Davit Euro Helm Seating and another called uno helm which I can't seem to readily find a link for that is a bit smaller than the euro. It is meant to sit one with the wheel centered whereas the euro will sit 2 and the wheel is offset. What I like the most about both is I can stick my legs out straight and not have to bend my knees for an indefinate period of time as in most center consoles.

[Mark424]

Originally Posted by sail4evr

As for the center consoles, if you build your own rib there are two models, one called a euro helm St. Croix Davit Euro Helm Seating and another called uno helm which I can't seem to readily find a link for that is a bit smaller than the euro. It is meant to sit one with the wheel centered whereas the euro will sit 2 and the wheel is offset. What I like the most about both is I can stick my legs out straight and not have to bend my knees for an indefinate period of time as in most center consoles.

Love it! The nice thing about the Euro helm is with a very inexpensive amount of metal work you could adjust the distance and height of the helm to what is most comfortable. It would also allow you to use much lighter weight dink, like the aluminum, or non-rib and still have a console. There is just no reason dinghies, i.e. Ribs, should be as heavy (or expensive) as they are. The lightweight dink is also much easier to pull up the beach.

As you say the leg room issue is huge, but also when you are alone or other passengers are in front, you want to slide to the center for balance, with a regular console your knees get jammed under the wheel.

Found a photo of the Uno-Helm (Apex Inflatable Boats and Dinghy Uno-Helm Kit).

[sail4evr]

I have a uno helm, an older model perhaps, and it looks more like the euro helm only a little smaller and fits in a little lower than the euro which has the seat more or less even woith the top of the tubes. The euro also has a fold down wheel and throttle control. They are not so light though. Almost as much as a fiberglass console

[lagoon100]

Hi
Anyone tried to but a stainless steel base at each end of the hulls to actually have the weight of such a Tender on tob of it (having the tender sitting on it)?

Yes if you would do long crossings in heavy weather you would have to but the engine at the front sitting place, but with a spi boom and the EL. Winch this should not be such a big job.

best regards

[sail4evr]

I'm not sure how much you have thought it through. Do you have a picture or drawing?

[lagoon100]

Well would be one steel plate to attach the construction on each hull and then the counter part's would have to be a construction which one could slide in after the tender has been lifted, its basically to support the weight after it is out of the water, would probably need reinforcing the mounting place in the back from the inside.
So the tender would sit with the front and the back on these plates (having the engine hanging on one stern side which would be blocked, the davits would only be needed to lift and hold in place.

That of course one would only do if going to rough see as you would otherwise not hasle to do it and tow the tender.

cu

[donphall]

"You just have to find the boat that works for you and your crew "

This to my mind is the only post on this thread that makes perfect seance.
I delivered a FP Eleuthera 60 in the 07 ARC "last years". There were 3 or 4 Lagoon 44 and two 50's that went with us. This ARC was much windier and many more disturbances than the average year.

Evey Lagoon made it fine, in fact one 440 beat us and we sailed fairly hard with the chute up probably 60-70% of the time. There was one fatality an accidental gybe that caused the boom to hit a man in the head.

Any truly experienced sailor will tell you lowering the boom on a bridge deck cat to "increase the safety" is just crazy. Your chance of getting hit in the head is about 1000% greater than the cat going over.

All this being said would I own a Lagoon- NO.
I have owned several cats and now a carbon tri for 4 reasons and in this order.

1. SPEED
2. flat sailing
3. shallow depth ( I live in the keys)
4. living space

If 4 and one were reversed then yes I would own a Lagoon the interior is heart stopping. The Lagoon 50 felt far bigger than the FP 60. That being said I would still pick the FP 60 as its numbers show it to be a far better sailing boat. These boats excel with 20-25 on the stern quarter and that is what we had all the way across. If I was trying to go to weather in 10 knots in this boat I think I would have cried.

In my opinion, and I think you will find most experienced sailors will agree light wind performance is what really matters. Will it sail when monos and 90% of cats are motoring. This is far more important than will it do 20 in 25 of wind. In open water in 25 of wind I guarantee you will not be having any fun at all over 10-14 its just too fast even DDW, you will be slamming into the waves in front of you watching your bows disappear.

If you don't mind motoring in light wind and the vast majority of your sailing is down wind than the Lagoon is a great boat.
If it were my boat I would probably give up sailing.
I have a 9.9 with less than 10 hours use on my 7 year old tri. I will sail all day in 3 knots of wind at 3 to 5 before I will start my outboard. I just don't like motoring.

All this was to say that the Lagoon is not for me. However, that does not mean the lagoon is not the right boat for you. Every post on this subject could be summarized this way.
As for safety the equipment you carry epirb, raft, sat phone, portable gps, & vhf are far more important than the boat design.

[Cat2sail]

Over 400 owners have purchased 440s. are they all wrong ? No, the 440 has made over 200 Trans-Atlantics and even more than 20 deliveries France to Australia. Where are you going ? Yes the weight apprears high but that due to it being an "all up" weight - including 8 persons, their food and clothers for three days, safety gear half fuel and half water, even normal spares. Not a stripped out dry weight. Finally the flybridge is excellent at sea even in a blow, surely the yacht will be managed from the interior helm in rough or very cold weather. The hieght of the boom is only a detriment in flaking the sail not in CG or heeling forces. These cats are not racers...but do perform quite well and are very safe. Designed by Vincent Prevost and Mark van Pettighem...the preminant multihull architects - trust them.
In the end though safety depends on the judgement and decisions of the captain and the vaguries of the Sea, independence carries reponsibilities.

[sail4evr]

I've jybed down wind, broad reaching in 25 apparent under main only, no reef, and there was no burying of my bows. Boat speed was typically 10kn picking up to 12 when surfing and no crashing into the waves in front. It was fun