440: lagoon 440 repair- big hole in hull

[Steadman Uhlich]

Outside the box....

Find a smaller cat with a damaged hull. Buy cheap.
Cut off the good hull of the small cat. Save.
Cut off the bad hull of the big cat. Discard bad hull.
Add good hull to good hull.
Result?

Proa!



Next, cut off bow of bad hull, add to stern of good hull. Etc.

[roverhi]

The repair is doable but won't be cheap and other systems like the engine, wiring etc will need attention. Are all the pieces there and in good condition like the mast, rigging, hardware, sails, electronics, cushions etc. or have pieces been 'eaten' by the marina rats?? Replacing stuff piecemeal gets expensive and sometimes off the shelf isn't available. Then it gets really expensive to have custom work done. What's it going to cost to store the boat while it's being replaced and will you be able to do the work outside the yard's staff??

With a value of $200,000 plus for a functioning boat, there is plenty of room to do the repair just be sure that you have the money to complete the project. Running out of funds after dumping $50-$100,000 into the repair will still leave you with an unusable boat. The final value will need to be discounted for a 'Salvage' title but a good surveyor working with you while the repairs are being done should mitigate that hit. If done properly the repair will probably be better than the original so shouldn't be a factor in the serviceability of the boat.

I've built one boat from a bare hull, done a restoration on another and am currently doing another restore. No matter how good your planning, the repair will cost way more than you estimate.

Have used the $10 labor hanging around the yards. Most were alcoholics, some had good skills when sober but most needed constant supervision to insure even the simplest job was done right. Much of the time they were a waste of money either because they didn't show up, didn't show up sober, or took more supervision to get the job done properly than if I'd done it myself. Maybe if you are somewhere where prevailing labor rates are low, you might find reliable $10 an hour labor but doubt you'll find it in the US.

Just want to be sure you are going into this project with your eyes open and the means to complete it. The insurance company totaled the boat because they didn't think it could be repaired for the value of the policy. Be sure you have the time, money and ability to prove them wrong.

Looks like a good job for a reasonably skilled do it yourself person with a trust fund income. Hiring work donw will greatly increase the cost. Fortunately with the value of the completed boat, it could even be made whole hiring all the work out and still be less than a new boat. In any case it's going to take considerable money, time, and skill to finish the project. Do you have those basic requirements?? If you don't, this could be another of the many derelicts sitting in a yard regulartly changing hands as the yard forecloses on unpaid rent liens or is cut up with a chain saw. We built our boat in a Ferro Cement boat yard. 10 years after we launched our boat, all but one of those boats was still in the yard and most were little farther along to completion. The yard property was eventually sold for a condo development. Wonder if any of those boat ever launched or just ended up being broken up.

[steamgoat]

Hire a good fiberglass guy who has just been laid off from Oyster.

[Mike Banks]

Of course it can be repaired--but to get the boat into the "As strong as before" condition is not enough. If you ever want to dispose of the vessel you will need to have it done properly--and preferably to survey standards.

That will be expensive.

If it were just I--I am pretty sure I could do as someone else suggested, but I like using plywood faced with melamine because it is easy yo put release compound on it and get a good surface after one removes it..

The strengthening and replacement of the chines, deck shelf, stringers and any other scantlings will need to be done so they are stronger than before. You will need to use a lot of epoxy resin and many layers of rovings--which will have to be faired into chamfered edges of the original hull which may need to be cut back further.

I do not think this is n just a weekend job. If the boat was damaged while on the hard it may be fixable. If it sank, the engines if any may also be damaged.

You would need to get her for a very low sum--the used price of her chandlery, less the costs of recovering it and disposing of the hulls. The longer it takes you to repair it, the more the yard costs accumulate.

[alansmith]

[QUOTE=akprb;2585108]Ahh, a story as old as time. I love her! I can change her! Why won’t she love me :-( All is lost.

A four part Greek tragedy.

This story has played out in boatyards over and over. If you want that experience go for it. It will cost more and take longer than can be imagined. It may never sail again and will be one of those boats you walk by on the hard and think “what happened there.”

AKPRB, sage advice, mate. Florentin, if you are listening ....this guy is giving you some very real world advice. I bought a 5000 dollar Sharpie and spent all my time and money for over a year bringing her back to life. I am easily 25k over the purchase price. I spent all of my time for half a year working on her. The other half a year...rained almost every day. Biggest rainfall in California since the mid '50's...My lucky year My wife looking at me like an alien living with her every time i cough up another 4K.

AKPRB has many aspects of boatyard life down correctly. Let me add some more comments to his.

1. Do you plan on living at the boatyard while all work is done? I am not saying anything that isn't just plain common sense. Even if you find a decent worker for 10 dollars an hour...how do you know what was contracted to be done got done the way you wanted it to be done? These men are trying to feed their families too. If some guy is stupid enough to not be there and supervise the job...license to steal has just been issued. Not all boatyards around the world are ethical. You should be very very aware of this.

a. you contracted to have 4 coats of Interlux Epoxy coating. But because you aren't there watching like a hawk....they used a cheap knock off epoxy coating and put two coats. Unless you have experience repairing boats on this scale ...it would be so easy to fleece (steal you blind). Don't think it ain't done? Live in a boatyard a year and you will see some real interesting characters.

2. Anything and everything can be repaired. The gentleman in one of the early posts gave you excellent advice about needing a boat builder to critique what needed to be done to see what is really damaged. Surveyors...even good ones do not have the technical qualifications to know what it takes to put a boat back together with this extensive damage. They have no way to know how long it takes to cut things out, grind things, epoxy mixes and cure rates, kinds of fiberglass (weight, directional, type). It really is a very specific set of skill sets.

3. There are multiple issues you are dealing with. There are structural issues of hidden damages, water damages, electrical, and mechanical.


I believe we all have that thing in us. Maybe it is part of a man's brain and how we are hard wired. We just want to rescue something that is broken and we want to bring it back to life again. Then there is that part of us that sees a 400k boat and can get it for 25K....cha ching! It is hypnotic, no?

Maybe it is a lesson you will have to experience to understand it better. But keep in mind....this is a very huge repair. It will take 4x longer to repair than you think. It will cost 5x more money than you can believe is possible.

Then...as mentioned before...she will be more difficult to sell because of her post hurricane injuries that will have to be disclosed. You will also find out how expensive it is to maintain a large cat like this. These boats are beautiful and comfortable. To run a charter business of any kind requires a strong financial deep base. Licenses, fees, pay offs, repairs, insurances, provisioning, breakage, wear and tear....it gets bloody expensive and then you are forced to sale. That is when the chickens come home to roost (bad decisions come back to bite you)..I know you are not native English speaking.

I wish you only the best and think it through very carefully. Get advice. But get advice from the right people who have the right education and license...and trade skills. Asking a surveyor for their professional opinion....yes they can give you their professional opinion. Unfortunately, they are not qualified or skilled to assess this problem. I am sure you can understand the nuance of these issues. You seem like a bright fellow and earnestly sending out pigeons in all directions to gather information. Hope you come up with a well formed idea what is possible...and most importantly....what will not have you shooting your own foot. Cheers,

[sailmac]

Hole in the hull is a bit of an understatement. Want to buy a 2009 L440 without a hole in the hull?

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

So many stupid comments, I can't believe my eyes.

1. It's fiberglass, and fiberglass can be easily repaired. Period. Amount of work depends on amount of damage, but again, fiberglass can be easily repaired with successful result.
2. There are hundreds of thousands boats worldwide been built from scratch by owners, by logic of some members here all of them must sink immediately.
3. No boat is built to aircraft standards EVER, but even airplanes get repaired and sections replaced.
4. Wake up, people! USA is not the only country in the World! $10/hr in some parts of the World is HUGE salary for highly skilled educated worker (yes highly skilled and educated, believe it or not!)
5. There are many cases when owners extended their boats, one example in post above, there's another example of extending catamaran right in the middle by 6ft can be found on YouTube, done by unskilled owner successfully, in months, not years.
6. Will it be cheap to repair? No, even DIY. Not 10 or 20K. It entirely depends on country where repair will be done, and on amount of work done by owner. I'd say if owner is not willing to do at least 50% of work, then it's questionable if it'll worth it at the end. Can it be done within reasonable period of time? Yes, but owner needs to have talent to find right people to work on boat and owner has to be on site 100% of time, 12 hours per day, everyday. If it starts "I have full time job..." than forget about this boat and sailing world all together, keep working hard.

The most intelligent reply yet. The world is full of naysayers and armchair builders. Having built a steel boat I know what it takes. The advice about being able to do at least 50% of the work yourself is spot on. Otherwise the labor cost is going to eat up any financial gain to begin with, even at $10 an hour. The advice about flood damage is good also, water damage could be worse than the hole. I suspect though that this boat was driven up onto something and could have stayed pretty dry. Hard to tell without more pictures and info.

[frankmulder217]

Originally Posted by florentin

hi,

I intend to buy a damaged lagoon 440(see pictures).
I need some opinions, if possible qualified.
-what method to repair the hull?
- repairing such a vast area of the hull, is it sound, would it be safe, as solid as before?

regards,

Flo

I am certainly not as negative as the other responders. I have seen bigger damages repaired successfully. If you do this the right way you can have a Lagoon 440 for $ 50,000. If you sail it for several years and sell it for a lot less than a 440 without damage history you will still be in the plus. Even if you give it away in 4 years you depreciate $50,000 which is not bad for owning 4 years a Lagoon440. I believe the top of really big repairs the Volvo Ocean racer Vesta
Vestas grounding report – More than just an expensive and embarrassing mistake - Yachting World
I do not know where the boat is, but probably in the Carib. If interested I might be able to find people who would do a job like this.

[Otia]

I wonder how many of the people telling you to run from it have done such repairs?
It is repairable, it can be better than new.
Its easier to buy brand new, but when you don't have the money you need to suffer the trouble...
Is this a Lagoon 38? Form the pic I think you are in sxm, if so I know someone there who could help you; pm me.

[florentin]

Originally Posted by DotDun

If you could find who has the factory molds and get them to layup that section, it could be done fairly reasonably. Paying someone to make a mold for that would be expensive, I would think.

The problem with a project like this is if you are paying a daily rate at the yard once you buy it, that could bankrupt the project.

hi,

keeping it a long time in some expensive boatyard is a concern, you re right, it s about time and not the qualified labour which I have for 10$/h.
If I could figure out some way to do a rough repair and sail for a hundred miles,
I could find storage for about 400$-600$/month which would be great..

[florentin]

Originally Posted by Otia

I wonder how many of the people telling you to run from it have done such repairs?
It is repairable, it can be better than new.
Its easier to buy brand new, but when you don't have the money you need to suffer the trouble...
Is this a Lagoon 38? Form the pic I think you are in sxm, if so I know someone there who could help you; pm me.

hi,

it s a Lagoon 440, but not in sxm ,
thanks anyway

[florentin]

Originally Posted by captlloyd

The most intelligent reply yet. The world is full of naysayers and armchair builders. Having built a steel boat I know what it takes. The advice about being able to do at least 50% of the work yourself is spot on. Otherwise the labor cost is going to eat up any financial gain to begin with, even at $10 an hour. The advice about flood damage is good also, water damage could be worse than the hole. I suspect though that this boat was driven up onto something and could have stayed pretty dry. Hard to tell without more pictures and info.

Hi,

thanks, I ll post some more pics

[florentin]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

"That'll buff right out"
A guy in a FLorida yard next to me was making a Lagoon 48 six feet longer. So yeah, I guess you can do it. He cut the hulls aft of the cabin. Is that a cored hull?
I also saw a big power boat being extended to add a hot tub on the back deck. About 65 footer. Chain saw.
I'm thinking waxed plywood screwed on the outside large flat area, laminate from the inside first. When done laminate the outside. That hull looks paper thin...?

lagoon says it s balsa core, polyester resin, vacuum method

[florentin]

[QUOTE=alansmith;2585354]

Originally Posted by akprb

Ahh, a story as old as time. I love her! I can change her! Why won’t she love me :-( All is lost.

A four part Greek tragedy.

This story has played out in boatyards over and over. If you want that experience go for it. It will cost more and take longer than can be imagined. It may never sail again and will be one of those boats you walk by on the hard and think “what happened there.”

AKPRB, sage advice, mate. Florentin, if you are listening ....this guy is giving you some very real world advice. I bought a 5000 dollar Sharpie and spent all my time and money for over a year bringing her back to life. I am easily 25k over the purchase price. I spent all of my time for half a year working on her. The other half a year...rained almost every day. Biggest rainfall in California since the mid '50's...My lucky year My wife looking at me like an alien living with her every time i cough up another 4K.

AKPRB has many aspects of boatyard life down correctly. Let me add some more comments to his.

1. Do you plan on living at the boatyard while all work is done? I am not saying anything that isn't just plain common sense. Even if you find a decent worker for 10 dollars an hour...how do you know what was contracted to be done got done the way you wanted it to be done? These men are trying to feed their families too. If some guy is stupid enough to not be there and supervise the job...license to steal has just been issued. Not all boatyards around the world are ethical. You should be very very aware of this.

a. you contracted to have 4 coats of Interlux Epoxy coating. But because you aren't there watching like a hawk....they used a cheap knock off epoxy coating and put two coats. Unless you have experience repairing boats on this scale ...it would be so easy to fleece (steal you blind). Don't think it ain't done? Live in a boatyard a year and you will see some real interesting characters.

2. Anything and everything can be repaired. The gentleman in one of the early posts gave you excellent advice about needing a boat builder to critique what needed to be done to see what is really damaged. Surveyors...even good ones do not have the technical qualifications to know what it takes to put a boat back together with this extensive damage. They have no way to know how long it takes to cut things out, grind things, epoxy mixes and cure rates, kinds of fiberglass (weight, directional, type). It really is a very specific set of skill sets.

3. There are multiple issues you are dealing with. There are structural issues of hidden damages, water damages, electrical, and mechanical.


I believe we all have that thing in us. Maybe it is part of a man's brain and how we are hard wired. We just want to rescue something that is broken and we want to bring it back to life again. Then there is that part of us that sees a 400k boat and can get it for 25K....cha ching! It is hypnotic, no?

Maybe it is a lesson you will have to experience to understand it better. But keep in mind....this is a very huge repair. It will take 4x longer to repair than you think. It will cost 5x more money than you can believe is possible.

Then...as mentioned before...she will be more difficult to sell because of her post hurricane injuries that will have to be disclosed. You will also find out how expensive it is to maintain a large cat like this. These boats are beautiful and comfortable. To run a charter business of any kind requires a strong financial deep base. Licenses, fees, pay offs, repairs, insurances, provisioning, breakage, wear and tear....it gets bloody expensive and then you are forced to sale. That is when the chickens come home to roost (bad decisions come back to bite you)..I know you are not native English speaking.

I wish you only the best and think it through very carefully. Get advice. But get advice from the right people who have the right education and license...and trade skills. Asking a surveyor for their professional opinion....yes they can give you their professional opinion. Unfortunately, they are not qualified or skilled to assess this problem. I am sure you can understand the nuance of these issues. You seem like a bright fellow and earnestly sending out pigeons in all directions to gather information. Hope you come up with a well formed idea what is possible...and most importantly....what will not have you shooting your own foot. Cheers,

hi,

thanks for your insight
like I already said i some other reply , I like this kind of brainstorming, I am a deep listener. The professionals have their part in this story, no doubt about it. About costs and some pros, just some facts: about engines, if rebuild is necessary- I was asked 2500$ each-work alone, and I can do it for 500$ with a real pro (it s a friend,but I could find others, same cost). I can do the whole electric wire system for about 2000$, with guys I know and trust, pros who work in real shipyards...my real concern is the fiberglass hull, the extent of the unseen unforeseeable damage...and not the guys who do it. And yes, when I m in I m 100% no other job...as for the dive charter job, I don t hire , it s just me and my bro who s also a dive instructor;there is no tax on the charter revenue in some countries, like Greece for example, there is only a 7-10¨% tax on other services; diesel is also net of some taxes; 6 months wintering for 3000-4000$; licences for charter and diving not so expensive, in the range of 3000$ altogether...with state owned marinas that cost almost nothing...and free moorings. Of course there are expenses, but nothing comes for free

regards,

[florentin]

Originally Posted by DerekKelsall

Hi,

I entirely disagree with most of the negative comment.

A small high speed ferry to my design ran onto a v rocky shore, tearing out the whole bottom of one hull, mostly as she was towed off. She is back in service. GRP is a lot easier to repair than one might expect. To replace the structure would require taking out all interior surrounding the hole and it might be a challenge to get a perfect result. You need the right man on the job, who has actually done hands on composite work. Is she sandwich? What core?

Happy boating, Derek.

hi,

lagoon says it s balsa core