420: Lagoon 420s Used on the Rise ?

[scooperfl]

Just chartered a '07 L420H in Tortola last week.

The boat was in great shape and was very comfortable for the 6 of us. The electric winches are really handy and the boat has an amazing amount of storage. The kids also loved jumping off the top into the water. I will also report that we only got a very occasional slap sailing 60deg apparent in 4 footers between Virgin G and Anegada. The electronic motor controls are fun.

However, I would never consider buying one and I feel that there are vastly superior cats in this price range. The reasons for this opinion are as follows:

1) Even with the clean bottom and and 18-22kt winds, this boat is shockingly slow. The only way to get around is to motorsail at max output (75A on this one). In that configuration, we were able to roughly keep up with other boats that were sailing nearby.

2) Port jib sheet does not lead to the winch properly. Really, all of the port side sail controls are poorly laid out.

3) 80G/80G water is inadequate for 6 people, especially considering you have to run the genset and motors everywhere you go. I understand with 12 8D's and 2 big electric motors in the stern there just is not enough load carrying ability for more.

4) Interior finishwork is the cheapest possible construction: The plastic fuel tank is just strapped down with a cheap strap and plastic buckle like you find on the cheapest battery boxes, head cabinet doors are molded plastic, master stateroom door slide design is shoddy, master shower door is cheaply implemented. Rear door and window sliders will not withstand continuous use, they used the cheapest non-cast hatches. The plumbing was ok, the electrical panel is non-expandible and has this goofy digital display.

5) The steering is a joke. Some kind of spectra line setup-horrible feel and high effort, even for a cat. You feel like you are driving an old RV.

6) The keels are hollow. If you did manage to ground one you would have a very hard time keeping it floating with a inaccessible hole so far below the waterline.

7) Reefer volume is inadequate.

8) Hull shape grossly distorted. The hull rocker stops maybe three feet from the stern and suddenly transitions into an ugly flat section to the stern. Obviously, this was done as a hull extension and to prevent squating. I swear every time I looked backwars at the boat's wake I was reminded of the cruiser I was on in the Navy.

I suppose with bigger sails, a screecher, asym. spin, folding props, and standard propulsion the performance would be much better.

[muskoka]

Originally Posted by scooperfl

8) Hull shape grossly distorted. The hull rocker stops maybe three feet from the stern and suddenly transitions into an ugly flat section to the stern. Obviously, this was done as a hull extension and to prevent squating. I swear every time I looked backwars at the boat's wake I was reminded of the cruiser I was on in the Navy.

I'd understood that the hull was designed to be used in the sail and the motor versions. I imagine the aft section was fattened up to handle the higher horsepower and weight in the motor cruiser.

I think it's an interesting motor sailor nonetheless.

[ess105]

Somehow I find it a bit demeaning to respond to comments like this but I feel I should :

Originally Posted by scooperfl

I feel that there are vastly superior cats in this price range.

Name them. You come on a public forum and trash a boat stating there are far better boats for the price. Go ahead and name them. Problem is you can find problems with every boat. And using statements like yours (which I wouldn't) would make it very easy to trash whatever you name. It all depends on what you want out of your boat. Saying there are better boats without stating them is cowardly.

Originally Posted by scooperfl

1) Even with the clean bottom and and 18-22kt winds, this boat is shockingly slow. The only way to get around is to motorsail at max output (75A on this one). In that configuration, we were able to roughly keep up with other boats that were sailing nearby.

"The only way to get around"????? What crap? I have sailed our boat down the eastern Caribbean and across to Colombia. If I take your words literally I must have been hallucinating all those times I thought I was sailing. We also kept up with many other boats but I agree not all of them. The 420 is known to have a small rig - a bit like having half a reef in (which is nice if we don't react soon enough to a squall). It also has wide hulls which makes for incredible living space - pretty important if you live on one. It also regenerates (taking a little of the boat speed) which is pretty darned nice on the long passages. If you're one of those folks who needs to beat everyone to the next mooring ball then be honest and say the boat is not the fastest. Live without your comforts and sail a lightweight high speed cat or even a tri. But to say "The only way to get around is to motorsail" is just crap.

Originally Posted by scooperfl

2) Port jib sheet does not lead to the winch properly. Really, all of the port side sail controls are poorly laid out.

I agree it could be better. Hey, I got the lines stuck a couple of times. About a year ago.

Originally Posted by scooperfl

3) 80G/80G water is inadequate for 6 people, especially considering you have to run the genset and motors everywhere you go. I understand with 12 8D's and 2 big electric motors in the stern there just is not enough load carrying ability for more.

"You understand"?????? You base an argument on heresay and then go on and make a point on this on a public forum? The truth is you can put a great deal more on this boat and change the performance little. We have a large washing machine, extra water, extra diesel, extra chain, additional anchors and lots of provisions (ashamedly much of it wine and beer from cheap stops). We're sailing pretty good.
"have to run the genset and motors everywhere you go". This is simple. Either you or I are lying.

Originally Posted by scooperfl

4) Interior finishwork is the cheapest possible construction: The plastic fuel tank is just strapped down with a cheap strap and plastic buckle like you find on the cheapest battery boxes, head cabinet doors are molded plastic, master stateroom door slide design is shoddy, master shower door is cheaply implemented. Rear door and window sliders will not withstand continuous use, they used the cheapest non-cast hatches. The plumbing was ok, the electrical panel is non-expandible and has this goofy digital display.

From what you're saying we should be living in a boat that's falling down around our ears. We are not. I'll give you one thing. I think the shower clips are rubbish.

Originally Posted by scooperfl

5) The steering is a joke. Some kind of spectra line setup-horrible feel and high effort, even for a cat. You feel like you are driving an old RV.

I simply don't agree with you although *living* in a 420 is more like *living* in an RV compared to a sports car.

Originally Posted by scooperfl

6) The keels are hollow. If you did manage to ground one you would have a very hard time keeping it floating with a inaccessible hole so far below the waterline.

These boats will stand on their keels. They're pretty tough. And they are pretty accessible. But that's kind of irrelevant. If you're worried about grounding a 4ft draft boat to the point where you'll make a hole in a pretty damn solid keel then I think you should spend more time taking sailing lessons than writing cowardly reviews.

Originally Posted by scooperfl

7) Reefer volume is inadequate.

No comment. Not sure what you mean.

Originally Posted by scooperfl

8) Hull shape grossly distorted. The hull rocker stops maybe three feet from the stern and suddenly transitions into an ugly flat section to the stern. Obviously, this was done as a hull extension and to prevent squating. I swear every time I looked backwars at the boat's wake I was reminded of the cruiser I was on in the Navy.

Hmmm. So your reasoning goes along the lines that Lagoon designed a 42 foot boat and then extended it. Making it. Ummm. 42 long. Hmmmm.

Originally Posted by scooperfl

I suppose with bigger sails, a screecher, asym. spin, folding props, and standard propulsion the performance would be much better.

A good downwind sail is a must for long term use. Folding props and std propulsion.... Well you lose the regen and we like that. Some 'sailors' out there seem to want a motor boat when on motor. If that's what you want then be honest and say so. Stick 75hp motors on each side and this boat becomes a tearaway. Pay the fuel. Buy lots more filters, etc. and put more time aside for maintenance.

[Octopus]

Originally Posted by ess105

Somehow I find it a bit demeaning to respond to comments like this but I feel I should :
....

Steve,

Perhaps you are being a little oversensitive. scooperfl said some kind words about the 420 before listing the things he doesn't like.

Originally Posted by scooperfl

Just chartered a '07 L420H in Tortola last week.

The boat was in great shape and was very comfortable for the 6 of us. The electric winches are really handy and the boat has an amazing amount of storage. The kids also loved jumping off the top into the water. I will also report that we only got a very occasional slap sailing 60deg apparent in 4 footers between Virgin G and Anegada. The electronic motor controls are fun.

However, I would never consider buying one ....

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and even I will admit that some of the negative points listed are justified. However, for me and for many people the Lagoon 420 is an outstanding package.

Chris
Octopus, 2007 L420 Hybrid
Marina de Portimao, Portugal

[shadow]

I'm with octopus. ess105, I think your quick and harsh attack on scooperfl was uncalled for. But, unlike you, I will allow you your "opinion." Scooperfl was only stating what he encountered with a charted version. It could have been a rare lemon of the 420 that he happened to have. He was only stating what he experienced and what he saw overall. That doesn't imply a blanket comment on ALL 420's.

If anything, with you eagerness to squash him, it only showed me that perhaps you know that he may be right deep down and that you feel a little ripped off with your purchase of the 420. Therefore you need to compensate with your righteous comments to quantify your purchase.. But again, that's only my opinion of what I observed...

[ess105]

Originally Posted by Octopus

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion .....

I agree. Everyone is entitled to their own oppinion but not their own facts. For example ...

The only way to get around is to motorsail at max output

just rubbed me the wrong way.

I am respectful of well stated fair opinion even if it's not to my liking. Hearsay, exaggeration and extrapolation erodes any good argument.

If there's any emotion in my argument it's resulting from disappointment. I've not spent much time on cruisersforum for a while and within 24 hours of spending a bit of time here up pops this drivel from a first time anonymous poster.

While there are always niggling issues with any boat we are delighted with Dignity. Not only that, the feedback we receive from all the serious long term cruisers we have aboard only reinforces the view that this is an outstanding package (thanks Chris for the phrase). For a community that spends much time in anchorage the roominess, the head room, the cleanliness (the boat is so much easier to keep in good order than many others), the storage, the views out of the windows, the comfort wins most, if not all, hearts. If you spoke to my wife you'd think my comments were downbeat.

[scooperfl]

Yes, the L420 does offer very comfortable living arrangements. As I said, the ride, underway and at anchor was very good and, as I mentioned, hull slap was nearly non-existent.

In retrospect, "the only way to get around" comment was uncalled for, sorry. However, saying an L420H is "not fast" is being charitable. I will stand by my statement that the one I was on was shockingly slow.

With regards to grounding, I will admit I live in W FL and I push the envelope a bit with my boat (Wauquiez C45-6' draft). Around here, like many other places, unless you stay in a pretty small box, you WILL eventually go aground, no matter what your draft.

[ess105]

Group hugs.

Big difference between grounding and putting a hole in your boat - particularly keels on which a boat can stand.

[colemj]

Ess,

Many manufactures with hollow integral keels put bulkheads in them to form water tight chambers to prevent water ingress if holed. If Lagoon does this, then there is less concern about putting a hole in a keel.

Mark

[J Ventura]

I sailed 2 new 420's from France to Florida and a number of them elsewhere. I've also sailed over 15 different types and sizes of cats , way offshore. The answer to the question is simply that the 420 is the worst boat ever produced by Lagoon , (now I'll probably get some flak from people I work for) .
She was designed to satisfy the needs of liveaboards who care more about washer driers then sailing. The 420's are at their finest when tied up in a marina and plugged to shore entertaining guests in the cockpit. She needs half a gale to get moving , goes to weather like a square rigger and a Lagoon 380 will sail circles around her , pardon the slight exagerations.
I'm not surprised at all that people who bought them thinking of doing some real sailing are now looking further afield. Having said this, I know more then a couple of owners who seem quite happy with their 420.
Horses for courses.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by J Ventura

and a Lagoon 380 will sail circles around her ,
.

And that is not saying a whole lot either is it?

[Poozer]

I understand that Lagoon released the new 421 model to address the performance problems with the 420. Does anyone know if they did indeed improve the performance of the boat?

[planetoftheapes]

A Lagoon 420 just won the multi-hull division of the ARC finishing ahead of many other multis including a 421. They finished well in front of J. Ventura's rocket the Lagoon 380.

This is not a scientific comparison but makes it possible for me to ask, what 420 performance problem? People that own them aren't complaining about performance problem only those that don't.

[J Ventura]

I sailed a 421 from Annapolis to Miami last month . Lagoon added more sail area ( the main is now square topped , it gives her more 34sq ft of sail area , and the hulls were modified on the transom area.You can't tell ( at least I can't) by comparing both boats on the water and I never saw drawings or photos of the 421 out of the water ,so I don't know exactly what those modifications were , but whatever they did , it was an improvement , the boat is more balanced and faster.
I was lucky with the weather on that trip ( not regarding temperature...) and broad reached most of the way so don't know if the windward performance improved , but the overall performance is definitely better.

[J Ventura]

Originally Posted by planetoftheapes

A Lagoon 420 just won the multi-hull division of the ARC finishing ahead of many other multis including a 421. They finished well in front of J. Ventura's rocket the Lagoon 380.

This is not a scientific comparison but makes it possible for me to ask, what 420 performance problem? People that own them aren't complaining about performance problem only those that don't.

Bringing up the ARC as a measure of performance for any boat is a bit unfair in my view. That event is , after all , a Rally for Cruisers , and if the ARC's fisnish line is the measure of performance , then the L 420 is superior to the Catana 47 or the Privilege 495. If you really want to compare boats' performances and put an end to the discussion you have to take both boats with matched crews , weather and conditions .