400: Lagoon 400 - Anybody Check it Out ?

[Catalysis]

Shadow:
The Antares 44i is not inexpensive but so far, after 6 months of ownership, I have to say that the build quality, performance and after-sales service is excellent.

[shadow]

That is excellent to know Catalysis!! Thanks for the insight as I will add that cat to my ongoing research!! cheers!!! Any pics or vids of it in action?? just curious

[Catalysis]

Shadow:
You may care to view Antares owners' blogs that can be accessed from liveantares.com

[Windgeist]

I loved the Antares so much it makes me wanna own a multi hull The owners website is excellent BTW.

Catalysis...I am so jealous Beautiful yacht!!!

[mudbug]

Hey Mark on Reach!

It's Buddy from Lagoon 380 Indigo Moon.

Hope we see you guys again on the way south . . .

I was just wondering, though, if there was anything that REALLY turned you off about the Lagoon 400????

All kidding aside, some of the missed details were obviously boat show rush-job things that can be easily addressed, but hey . . it is a SHOW and it has got to be embarrasing for manufacturers when their boats are not perfect to stand up to truly experienced and critical eyes.

Like you, I saw some shortcomings, but I also saw crowds clamoring over the Lagoons AND folks buying them too!

That aside, you know, I too have been looking at ALL the new designs of many cat brands and I keep seeing fewer bulkheads, less surface area to the bulkheads that actually remain, and lots of wide-open interior spaces, not to mention picture windows and bigger "holes" in hulls.

And it's not just Lagoon. It's production cats in general.

I guess the easiest finger to point is the "old saw" about designing primarily for charter needs in the B.V.I., but I am not sure that is the answer, or that I even know what these new trends in the industry represent as a whole. It would be facinating to question designers and engineers personally.

Many brands have gone to the "tank gun-turret" hole in the hard bimini for the helmsman . . . it can be enclosed at additional custom expense, of course, but it then looks so odd to me . . . to see the lines of a bimini interrupted as such.

I just don't know. Maybe I'm old fashioned and out of date.

Like most boat owners, I like my generation boat because it is what I know. And there are very few of its design-cues and pedigree in the new Lagoons.

I am so used to the darker wood and interior colors in my 2001 L380 . . . the new Lagoons look so bland to me . . . with their very-light wood bulkheads and black soles/floors and a post-modern "sushi restaurant" look (that is admittedly cosmopolitan and a classy look they are shooting for), but it all just looks so cold and different from what my boat looks like.

When I stroll in the wide-open interiors of these new designs (again, not just Lagoons) I keep sensing that there needs to be padeyes for jacklines INSIDE the hulls so as to be able to hang on offshore and go forward and aft.

I've been offshore.

I like that my 2001 has many bulkheads, smaller doorways with transoms, smaller sole panels, and no picture windows. It's been a solid ocean boat.

As for fit and finish, well, you can do a lot to stop creaking and noises by pasting carpet on bulkeads, or just tabbing and gelcoating over bulkhead seams like some manufacturers do . . . sometimes if the "mouse fur" is stripped off those other boat's "quiet" interiors, however, they are not as sexy and strong underneath as people think either.

I would suppose the new Lagoons' soles will creak along okay, as will the decks, even if it grates on those of us who notice.

As for all the freeboard on the 400, well, I have always been amazed at Catanas . . . they look like ships compared to my L380! I always wondered about the windage, but also thought of the luxury of all that extra freeboard going into steep seas.

As for less freeboard like on our boats, I have sailed many thousands of miles in the company of Manta 42's, for example, and we both see green water at about the same rate and it's "pretty sporty" compared to those Catanas with lots more freeboard (and obviously now the new Lagoons will have a big advantage too when the going gets tough). I can't say that docking ease is a totally good reason to give up awesome freeboard offshore.

I did notice that there were some hefty power options for the Lagoons, so that could help attenuate windage concerns while docking.

As for sailing and speeds on the new Lagoons, well . . . my loaded down 380 and a loaded down Manta 42 have performed virtually identically . . . astonishingly so, both when motoring in flat calms and sailing offshore in callenging seas.

I have sailed in the company of two Manta 42's over the years and our performance has been ridiculously identical (much to the dismay of one of the 42 owners who is still determined his 42 averages 12 to 14 knots and is much faster than an L380. . . I guess my 380 has superpowers . . . it really pisses him off!).

That said, I would be VERY surprised if the 400 and 421 Lagoons did not sail markedly faster than our boats and represent a different class of speed.

The Lagoon 400's rig makes the L380, L410, and Mantas rigs look pretty darn smallish.

Whatever other shortcomings may or may not come to fruition when actually using a new Lagoon 400 and 421, and once the little bugs are worked out, I will say that Lagoon clearly put a substantial-looking rig and sizeable winches on both the 400 and 421.

One person whom I trust reported the sailing to be very good and noted an acceleration sensation simply not seen on older Lagoons.

Of course, there are the new "fat-head" mainsails too.

And that's another thing. Lagoons are so square-looking now . . . square footprint, square coachroof, square windows, square topped mainsail . . .

They better pay Huey Lewis to use his song "hip to be square."

The one thing I always have to remind myself of when judging all these boats is the price. All the usual suspects (leopard, lagoon, catana, F.P., . . . etc.) must all balance value versus price to compete.

I am quite sure that any one of them could build a million dollar 40 foot cat that would require a thesaurus full of the very best adjectives to desbribe it and that such a boat would render all our earlier-generation production cats a "joke."

Against that backdrop, however, when viewed as "what you get for just over 300 grand for a brand new boat" the 400 Lagoon looks a little better. It sure looks like a LOT of real estate for the price.

I'll tell you what boat rocked my world at the show. That big new Prout! What a beauty! Vertical coachroof windows, great visibility, decks like steel, fine interior, well thought out . . . I simply loved it.

But it was well over twice the price of the Lagoon 400 and I am not sure it was more than twice the boat.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see where the industry goes next as far as cutting edge production cat design is concerned.

The great news for me is that I still managed to leave yet another boat show and be TOTALLY happy to be going home to my particular boat!

To me, that is a GREAT boatshow experience!

Sooner or later, something will send me home wanting something new . . . but it has not happened yet!

All the best, and hope to see you "out there",

Buddy

[James Joll]

I can not believe the crap of Colemj no doubt some hang up about Lagoon and their unrelenting sales successes. No one one needs to say anything except why do they sell so many ? ????

[imagine2frolic]

Not to say the Lagoon is good, or bad. The number of sales does not make it a good boat, just popular.......i2f

[colemj]

Originally Posted by James Joll

I can not believe the crap of Colemj no doubt some hang up about Lagoon and their unrelenting sales successes. No one one needs to say anything except why do they sell so many ? ????

Wow James, pretty harsh. I can assure you I have no hang ups about Lagoon and have been impressed by many of their boats over the years. However the 400 is not one of them. Have you actually been on the Lagoon 400? Please re-read my post on it and tell me where I state anything that isn't a direct, observable fact and not an opinion or judgement.

Using your logic, Atlantics, Gunboats, Yaplukas, etc must be really bad boats because they only sell one or two of them each year.

Switching industries, the Chevrolet Chevette was the largest selling car for GM - an unrelenting sales success for sure. Must have been the best car made...

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by mudbug

Hey Mark on Reach!

It's Buddy from Lagoon 380 Indigo Moon.

Hope we see you guys again on the way south . . .

....

All the best, and hope to see you "out there",

Buddy

Hi Buddy,

We were getting crabs at Bo Brooks in Canton a while back and saw Indigo Moon. Were going to stop by, but it was during that bad weather period and was wet and cold.

Regarding the Lagoon 400, I can only point to the bow pulpit seats as missed details. As for the rest, it is difficult to imaging how no planned galley storage, springy decks, pop-riveted bow rollers, dangerous hatches, poorly made floorboards, etc can be put down to rushing it for the show. No, this is the worst quality catamaran on the market. It is truly a shameful product for Lagoon.

I agree with you about the crowds. I too saw people signing contracts for the boat as fast as Lagoon people could fill them out. Don't know what to say about that other than, as another poster pointed out, it is a sure sign of what a quality boat it really is. Or maybe that there is a sucker born every minute - I keep getting those two confused.

I also agree that production cats in general are following similar trends. I didn't mean to isolate Lagoon for the silly helm station arrangement and helm seat - I found them in several new boats. I don't like them, but I don't view them as poor quality. The Lipari, for example, had a continuous hull without interior bulkheads, but the deck over it did not deflect and bend like Lagoon's. In fact, to make sure that I actually experienced it, after bouncing on the solid Lipari deck, I went back to the Lagoon deck and re-witnessed the springy deflection. It is a badly built boat.

I don't understand your comparisons with Manta. I didn't mean to denigrate yours or any other Lagoons - just the 400 specifically. I have sailed and lived on a 380 for two weeks and found it a good boat. We considered them strongly when shopping for ours, but they were a newish boat at the time and we didn't find any owner versions. And the old Lagoon 42 is one of my favorites. As for bulkheads, freeboard, etc, I didn't find any problems with them on the 400. Only the floorboards were poorly executed, and I think freeboard on catamarans is an overblown worry. Once you have moved to a catamaran, freeboard is only relative - kind of like ranking one Chihuahua as cuter than another.

I can't comment on the speed of the boat - but I doubt it will out-sail any storm like the Lagoon representative stated. Given the design, I also doubt it will out sail any other production boat by a margin large enough to compensate for differences in helmsman, loading, etc. In other words, it will fall squarely in the same class as our boats and not move up into class with the Schionning, Outremer, Atlantic, etc.

BTW, there is no way a Manta goes 12-14 kts let alone average that. We hit 12-14 with ours once briefly when it was stripped of all weight and over canvassed. We used to hit 9-10 easily in 15-20kt winds when it was light. Now everything we own is aboard and we settle for 8kts as top speed.

You make a valid point about the boat being designed to a price, and I tried to keep that in mind when examining it. But I still think it is a bad execution at any price. I don't judge a boat in terms of amount of real estate for a given price, being more interested in the tradeoff between usability and how a boat holds up over time for a given price bracket. I am interested to know what the actual sailaway price will be after common options are added and after the first few boats are sold at show. I suspect it will be north of 400K. I also think a purchaser should plan on a lot of repair expense over its lifetime. I saw equipment and mountings that will not last 3 years before failure. Again, things like dangerous deck hatch designs, no galley storage, unusable anchor rollers, engine hatch covers that leak through design, engine spaces that are poorly accessible, etc are not cost issues. They are design and execution issues and the Lagoon 400 fails here miserably.

Forget about the Prout 45 - they have moved on and 50 is the smallest size now. I wanted to like that boat but couldn't. Did you open up the engine hatches or pull any access panels out on it? The glass work was very heavy mat and woven roving, and poorly done at that. For a Formosa 51 it was appropriate glass work, but not for a catamaran. The extensive use of 0.5" thick ebony and 1" thick granite was nice looking, but the weight penalty boggles the mind.

I know what you mean by a great boat show - I got out with only a pair of shoes that I really needed and a $5 piece of fishing equipment that I didn't need. And it reaffirmed that we liked our current boat.

See you south,
Mark

[paulrack]

I have not seen the 400, only the quality of the 500 and 440, both new boats. I believe they are taking the max profitability per boat to the extreme, at the cost of quality. This is bad as it ultimately affects the whole brand, including maybe some of the older boats that were better built. On the 440 which was new and had just sailed to Cape Town some of the main issues I noticed were; appalling stainless steel, looked like it was plated, no shine at all and lots of rust marks, gelcoat already looked "chalky", weak anchoring setup, flimsy rollers, cheap veneer with open bad joints, terrible joinery with big gaps and still lots of splinters where holes were made, exposed screws everywhere, terrible noisy flooring with big gaps.

I did not even bother to look into the nooks and crannies and the bulkhead attachments, I dread to think what I would have seen there.

[ato]

one of the 400s was towed into my marina for fit out. it looked nice enough from afar. during a walk alongside i also agree on the previously mentioned weak point, like anchoring setup, rusty steel, etc. i would not buy one, even if the price seems attractive. i can have a better boat built locally for nearly the same amount.

[hanafe]

Well, I own one and I am very happy with it and can not understand most of the comments of boat show visitors, who never sailed the boat before.

I am happy about the lighter wood inside now. The dark wood was always one of the reasons not to buy a Lagoon as we just do not like it. Taste is different, it is that simple.

Quality wise the Lagoons are in the cheaper price area, everybody knows, but you get a lot of boat for your money.

The speed of the boat is very very good. Of course it varies in different conditions. In very light winds maybe a bit heavy, but in strong winds and seas very fast and very comfortable due to the high freeboard, which is on the other hand a pain in the neck when lying at a pontoon. However, are we sailing or docking?
Life is a compromise and so are catamarans.

[Zonker]

hanafe .. seen your video clips on youtube - very nice !

A quick question regarding 440 and 400 ... currently you can buy a 440 for about 300K Euros whereas a brand new fully loaded 400 also costs 300K Euros.

Does it make sense to go for the 440 since you get "more" boat for the same price ? Or is the 400 engineered much better (latest technology) and therefore the choice ?

Also I have to admit the fly bridge might not the best setup if you plan to sail in colder regions (personal taste ...)

I would appreciate any comments (also from other Lagoon owners).

[impi]

Hi Zonker
I have said it before - I absolutely love the flybridge on my 440. It really provides fantastic views and when cruising most of our friends all end up enjoying the flybridge.
When it gets cold, simply use the remote control to steer the boat.
We rented out our farm over a year ago and live on our 440. I truly love the space and the vessel - unfortunately no support from the manufacturer but have come to terms with that.
Disappointments: we have an owners version and live the spaciousness if the owners cabins and toilets (heads) - the space in the visitors toilets/showers is very limited (a big negative if you have larger guests visiting).

[katsumi]

we love ours, she sails beautifully, no problems with quality, I have seen some clonkers and they are definitely not Lagoons and not the L400.
As for the flybridge, it's awesome but we live in a warm climate. Fully dry in the rain up there and with a jacket on, comfy as well.