380 S2: Lagoon 380 vs Leopard 38

[jkd]

Jim, Please try the registration again. Sometimes it takes a couple of days for someone to get back to you.

John

[mudbug]

Hi folks,

I will just throw my 2 cents in. I LOVE living on our Lagoon 380 owner's version and we have been 15,000 miles in four years, sailing with Mantas, Lagoon 410's, Catanas, FP's, Leopards, etc.

We have tremendous storage space for a 38 footer, LARGE aft cabins with queen bunks fore and aft, and a layout that resulted in the most successful production run in 38 foot and larger catamaran history.

We have the boat LOADED for liveaboard cruising and keep up just fine with all the 38 to 42 footers with no trouble at all.

I recently sailed with a Manta 42 from Islas Mujeres, Maxico to Key West and we arriced within five miles of each other.

The vertical salon windows on the Lagoon are indispensible and are cool in the tropics and allow offshore watches from inside. On cats like Mantas and Leopards, the salon windows get covered up to try and keep the sun out and visibility is severly limited. Even with the salon windows screened, some of the sloping window cats get so hot during the day you can't sit in the salon.

On saildrives, I have found them to be much more durable than I originally thought. I too was VERY skeptical about the durability of saildrives.

But, the extra space created by getting stinking/hot diesel engines outside the accomodations and into aft compartments behind firewalls is invaluable. I would never buy a cat with engines under the bunks. But that is just me.

Also, the saildrives result in placement of the engines in large compartments and engine accessibility is stellar, making servicing a snap.

One more thing. Always ask if your "dream cat" is certified to unsinkable standards like FP's, Lagoon and Catana. Those cats have foam sandwich above the waterline, lots of buoyant materials and watertight bulkheads that will keep you afloat of flooded.

I see no such claims on Leopard's behalf and I was troubled (actually shocked to be honest) to hear about a Leopard sinking to the bottom rather quickly in the BVI after getting "T-boned" in a collision. I thought all cats were positively buoyant, but they are apparently not and the Leopard sunk like a monohull from what I am told.

In contrast, you can see on the Fontaine Pajot thread here on the board a picture I took (posted by a friend) of a FP that was swamped and dismasted and crossed the Caribbean Sea and was still floating.

Sometimes, saildrives and gally layouts are not the issue, if you get my drift.

Anyway, there are many attributes that are tradeoffs as you all know. For us, the Lagoon 380 has been the perfect boat for us and we still absolutely LOVE it. It overcomes its few shortcomings (all boats have them) and delivers what I consider a tremendous value for the money.

Did I mention we are still happy with the boat?

Anyway, not knocking anybody else's choices or likes. All the major manufacturers build really great boats and any one of them will serve you well.

We all need to buy a boat we LOVE because they cost too damn much and are too much trouble to wind up taking care of something you have mere luke-warm feelings for.

So . . . Happy Shopping and I hope you wind up as happy as I am no matter what choice you make. It's all good!

All the best,

Buddy

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by mudbug

I see no such claims on Leopard's behalf and I was troubled (actually shocked to be honest) to hear about a Leopard sinking to the bottom rather quickly in the BVI after getting "T-boned" in a collision. I thought all cats were positively buoyant, but they are apparently not and the Leopard sunk like a monohull from what I am told.



Buddy

Thanks for another informative post from experience.

I really appreciate them.

I had no idea the Leopards were not unsinkable. Hmmm.

[D&D]

Cheers Buddy! Your posts and your persepctives are always refreshingly candid. Does your arrival at Key West signal the completion of a circumnavigation?

I too am shocked at the reported sinking of the Leopard...and I invite others on this thread -- Some of whom press the Leopard case very well -- to comment.

[mudbug]

Therapy, hey my pleasure. Hope you are doing great!

D&D, yes when we arrived in Key West, all we had to do was go from Key West to Marathon to close the circle . . . we had a nice party when we got to Marathon.

This next year it is up the East Coast to Maine. After three years in the Third World, we are excited about a year back in U.S. Waters. After that, who knows? Anyway, thanks for asking and I hope things are going your way.

Now, back to the subject.

I was sitting in the Cayuco Club of Mario's Marina on the Rio Dulce in Guatemala one day last August, sipping a coke while one of my cruising buddies (who we have leap-frogged around the Caribbean with -- a monohull guy) sipped a beer and he gazed out upon my boat sitting nicely right by the club and out of the blue he said "You know, those sink too, Buddy."

My reaction was . . . Tom, you are so full of SH%$ when did you EVER hear that a Lagoon 380 sunk? And don't give me that tired old saw that swamped and floating is equal to the boat plummeting to the bottom.

Then he started telling me of a Moorings Leopard that got T-Boned in the BVI and sunk to the bottom in 30 minutes (not as fast as a monohull, but the dog gone thing actually SUNK!)

I asked around and sure enough many other people had heard about it. So, I was thrown for a loop because us multihull people always excitedly tell people about cats floating and flipping being the worst of it.

Well, Tom's "cats sink too you dummy" remarks got me to looking around. On the Lagoon website they specify that the cats are certified to European standards of unsinkability and that foam core (and balsa core in the coachroof) and LOTS of wood interior finishing, etc. provide a great deal of positive buoyancy, not just watertight bulkheads. Primer: Titanic had bulkheads too, flawed, but that was the plan nonetheless.

Many vessels have watertight bulkheads. But ONLY positive buoyancy can defeat all types of flooding and especially breaking up.

Anyway, I went to Robertson Caine's website and I could find NOTHING, not a word about unsinkability. No claim of any certification to any standard and no indication at all that their cats will float if totally flooded.

Then, I heard from even more cruisers about the Moorings cat actually sunk will just one hull compromised.

So, I have stopped suggesting that all cats are floaters.

I too would love to have someone with authority, perhaps from the Leopard factory, to set out exactly why they make no claims of unsinkability and certainly make no mention whatoever about meeting any such formal standard like the French guys do.

And if they do make such claims, where are they and what are they?

I guess some of it is pure common sense.

Foam floats. Balsa wood floats. Wood floats. If your cat has carpet finishing on the interior, or textured gelcoat, instead of wood then no buoyancy there. If there is no foam coring in the upper sections of the hulls, or balsa anywhere then no buoyancy there either.

If the absence of those materials suggests sinking cats, then quite a few cats, South African and USA, come to mind as possible sinkers too . . . that is why I suggest that you really press a manufacturer hard as to what their formal "in print" and "in writing" claims are regarding this issue and whether or not they will say IN WRITING that they meet the same standards that Lagoons and FP's and Catanas do.

Of course, this issue is only important to you if you consider it an issue at all. ALL monohulls sink and there are a lot of happy people out here on them. Certainly, absent some wild accident that rips both hulls severly, even sinking cats will probably give you more time to collect things and get in the life raft than a monohull will.

Personally, I would not let the sinking issue prevent me from buying a Leopard, or any other cat, if that is the boat have fallen in love with.

I like all the cats, really. I can walk around on any cat now and tell you what is particularly fabulous about each one of them. Out here, we tend to be pretty open and non-defensive about comparing features of our various boats.

Even if your cat can sink, there is a very tiny statistical chance of sinking and a 100% chance you will spend a lot of time on the boat. Hanging around on a boat you dislike, biting your fingernails waiting to survive by not sinking would be a pretty silly plan, right?

BUT. . . I HAD to make sure we had an unsinkable cat or else Melissa would not go on ocean passages. She wanted a certified unsinkable vessel. Just so happens, she fell head over heals for the Lagoon 380's layout and I can say the same. So, we are very lucky that everything lined up perfectly for us.

Anyway, I sure got "sent to school" on the Rio Dulce because I assumed all cats were positively buoyant but apparently they are not.

I am going to the Miami Boat Show and plan to ask all the "cat people" what their claims are IN WRITING.

Maybe I can get some straight answers, who knows.

You never know what you'll learn next in the crazy life!

All the best,

Buddy

[mudbug]

Here is the exact copy from the Lagoon web site -- I have placed the relevent text in bold:

• The sandwich core in balsa offers better mechanical (excellent resistance to compression) and chemical (more stability over time) properties.

• The construction by infusion: not only offers the optimal proportion of resin in the fibreglass (comparable to that of the pre-impregnated building technique), but the quality of the bonding between the composite materials and the isolation of each balsa square by mechanical ties between the inner and outer skins improves the quality and reliability of the structure, while providing an appreciable gain of weight.

• The anti-osmosis barrier systematically created by the use of vinylester type resin on all the Lagoons is a guarantee of durability.

• Buoyancy is also a guarantee of security. All Lagoon catamarans comply with the CE standards for the unsinkability of multihulls. The forward and aft compartments of each hull are separated from the living quarters of the yachts by watertight bulkheads. The density of the materials used and the absence of ballast enhance the unsinkable characteristics of the boat. Even after an impact, you can carry on sailing with your Lagoon.

• The vertical windows of the deck cabin offer many advantages:
- More protection against the sun: it is cooler in the saloon
- More volume inside the boat without encroaching on the exterior
- Higher headroom
- Better visibility to the outside world
- Timeless design

• The wide hulls offer more volume in the cabins with larger floor space.

• The volume of the hulls allows us to fit double beds even on the Lagoon 380.

• Steering cables (same as on racing boats) and trapezoidal rudders offer a precise control, an excellent performance and a very responsive helm.

• Helm stations have been designed for comfort and ease of manoeuvring.

• The saloon and cockpit spaces are well proportioned and the ease of access from one to the other is typical of the layout on Lagoons and always appreciated by their clients.

• The living areas on Lagoon catamarans are comparable to those of monohulls30 to 40 % longer.

__________________________________

All the best,

Buddy

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by mudbug

I am going to the Miami Boat Show and plan to ask all the "cat people" what their claims are IN WRITING.


Buddy

It would be nice to see you there. I am sure my wife would like to speak to yours.

[mudbug]

send me a cell number: boatbum@indigomoon.us

[SelkirkWind]

Originally Posted by mudbug

Hi folks,

I see no such claims on Leopard's behalf and I was troubled (actually shocked to be honest) to hear about a Leopard sinking to the bottom rather quickly in the BVI after getting "T-boned" in a collision. I thought all cats were positively buoyant, but they are apparently not and the Leopard sunk like a monohull from what I am told.

Buddy

You know I thought your post was great. As a Leopard owner and a Moorings owner I was immediately curious. I never imagined a Leopard sinking. So I posted to the other Moorings Owners. What came back was this:

The owner of the boat lost his BENETEAU 393 in 120 feet of water So your comment ends up right.....it sunk like a monohull because it was a monohull!

This article was the only thing I could find before I found the owner's post.
Moorings Vessel Sinks in Sir Francis Drakes Channel - Virgin Islands Platinum News ... BVI Daily News You Can Count On

Bad data in, worse data out. I appreciate this guys comments about the fact that we all HAVE TO LOVE our boats, but get you facts straight mate!

AND BTW, Leopards routinely beat Lagoons in Catamaran racing! Look up the facts! Still, having sailed both, the Lagoon 380 is a great boat. I disagree with your comment about the windows. It is true that my Leopard 46 has an exterior shade over the side windows and horizontal steps in front of the bow facing windows. The design works for me! I think it is superior to the Lagoon vertical windows as access to the main is easy (built in no skid steps) and excellent visibility and shade (think cooler in the tropics!) in the salon.

All boats have weakness......my boat has a definite blind spot on the port bow on a starboard tack when viewed from the helm. They put a window in the genoa, but you need to be aware that it is there!

[mudbug]

SelkirkWind,

Hey, your 46 is a great boat. What a palace!

You could put my little 380 on your davits!

Anyway, my facts above are straight as stated and not overzealous. I am sorry, however, if it grates on you.

I too was certain that the folks reporting the Leopard cat sinking must have been confused and mistakenly thought a monohull was a cat.

BUT, folks keep telling me it was a Moorings Leopard cat and one guy even said he saw it with his own eyes and that I am the one who is full of B.S. when I keep saying it had to be a mistake.

If I remember right, they claim it was actually on a mooring in the Bight at Norman Island when struck and sunk.

Is it all a lie or misinformation? Who knows? The facts I have set forth above are true: numerous people out here cruising keep telling me that I am full of B.S. when I say cats don't sink because they allegedly saw and heard of a Leopard cat sinking.
So, I don't say 'all cats' anymore, because I have been getting extreme heat about this alleged Leopard incident.

BTW, the 120 foot plunge of the beneteau is NOT the same incident.

But that is not the point anyway.

What is the point is whether R&C's are published in writing as certified to CE unsinkable standards and, if so, is that written down somewhere? That would go a LONG way toward me suggesting that the alleged incident is misinformation (assuming it is).

I could not find anything that says one way or another on R&C's website, and that is the gist of what I am trying to find out.

As for racing . . . well, that is a perfect example of why people have different tastes. We live on our boat full time and cruise and are not interested at all in racing or pushing our rig.

So, I can't attest to racing prowess on various cruising cats, and, quite frankly do not care at all about getting somewhere first. I care more about getting there in one piece and without breaking anything.

Anyway, I am going to ask about all this in person at the Miami Boat Show and see what answers I get.

I WANT the Leopards to be CE certified unsinkable. Lots of people I love are out here on them!

All the best,

Buddy

[nodee]

Buddy,
Thanks for your informative post. Your input is always valued. Happy to hear you are planning to come up the east coast. If you get into the Baltimore / Annapolis area and need a place to tie up, (or tie one on) look us up.

[SelkirkWind]

Originally Posted by mudbug

SelkirkWind,

Hey, your 46 is a great boat. What a palace!

You could put my little 380 on your davits!


Buddy

I challenge any and all readers of this forum to find a verifiable article showing a Leopard sinking.

Well, obviously I prefer verifiable fact and not hearsay. The other Moorings owners have btw NEVER heard of an R&C sinking period. As an engineer, I have to also point out that the construction materials differences between Leopards and Lagoons are miniscule, epoxy, fiberglass resin, balsa blocks, and laminates to prevent osmosis. The logic is simple, any boat made like this may fracture, but it will still float, there is nothing with great enough weight to sink it. I am not sure what the CE spec for unsinkability requires, but I agree that if this a marketing issue then R&C should address it.

HOWEVER, I do not want a CE boat. I was in the BVI and met a guy doing a CE inspection. Do you know that you have to turn all of the hatch covers around to pass CE? That's right, the CE spec requires that the hatches be reversed so that water from the bow will not rip them open or off. NOT a good idea in the tropics. But, whatever floats your boat. If you need to sell in Europe the CE must be worth something. Almost no boats in the Caribbean meet the CE requirements for obvious reasons.

As for my boat being large, OMG have you been aboard the Leopard 65s at Tortola? All I could do was stare in amazement. What really surprised me is that they sail really well. I was on one that the owner was reinforcing the rigging on his downwind furler with this new line that has incredible strength. He had invested in an amazing spinnaker to improve his downwind performance and was making sure his boat could take advantage of it safely.
I wish.........oh well, just a lovely charter boat for now...... (There are many Leopard 38s fitted for cruising in the Caribe, the most noteworthy are in the USVI. Check them out when you are there.)

When I asked the owner of the 65 about dockage, he replied that he had enough room for a decent tender (I could argue that point, he could fit two) and didn't need to dock except to pull up for water and waste. The standard docks all met the bill. I asked him about his charter usage. His boat is expensive and the average multi sailor would be hard pressed (although loving it). He said that Moorings has a group of regular Giant cat charterers whom he knows personally, and very little competition (Moorings has 3 of these boats). People walk off the generically available big 50ft Cats onto his boat and swoon. Pulling that baby out however, very few shipyards can handle her beam AND length. The problems to have....

[ireaney]

To be safe I would want a CE boat as the directions for building etc are very stringent and sensible.

I do like the Leopards but I have heard their davits have a habit of pulling away from the stern, plus I have seen evidence in St.lucia myself.

[SelkirkWind]

Originally Posted by ireaney

To be safe I would want a CE boat as the directions for building etc are very stringent and sensible.

I do like the Leopards but I have heard their davits have a habit of pulling away from the stern, plus I have seen evidence in St.lucia myself.

I just want to be clear, you can order a Leopard with CE certification! All of the boats can meet the CE spec if the hatches are turned around and so on and so forth. The unsinkability spec is NOT in the regular CE certification because when I bought my boat last May (2009 boat), I was offered CE. To sell a boat in the Americas, CE is unnecessary (and who wants to pay to turn all of the hatch covers back around.....). If the Lagoon that Mudbug is sailing on has it's hatches facing backwards, it probably is a CE boat, but if not, it is not!

I have the newest generation of davits on my boat. They work and I like them, but I have had an issue. I am convinced that R&C has a problem with the stainless steel used in the davit support mechanism. I am currently pursuing this as a warranty issue with R&C. I will let you know how that goes. I have used the old davit systems on the 38 and as large as the 47. I did not like it. If you look at the last year of production vessels (no problem anywhere in the Caribbean) you will see they have been completely re-engineered. They needed to be. As I have said, all boats have issues. Look at the Lagoon 440. Have you ever been in the "pit" they put behind the tramp and taken a big wave? My kids call it "the Cat with a hot tub".

[ireaney]

Originally Posted by SelkirkWind

Look at the Lagoon 440. Have you ever been in the "pit" they put behind the tramp and taken a big wave? My kids call it "the Cat with a hot tub".

I fully agree with you, if that fills up with water, I had heard it was the equivalent to the weight 2 tons, I may be wrong, but that amount I think is scary if in a bad sea.