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Old 28-12-2017, 21:57   #496
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

I hate to use Lagoon style reef because of significant tension on mainsail luff must be applied to shorten leech point.

re downwind reefing I am thinking of this setup for my first passage

Get rid of 1st reef and make second reef manual( as per rom L44), use first reef rope to attach to second reef luff attachment. Also add downhaul.

Mild seas and wind and night coming, use full sail. Wind pips up, winch down leech and luff interchangeably until second reef set.

There will be considerable area of sail between full and second reef that will be loose during operation but one hopes lazy jack should keep it in check.

Anyone tried this ?
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Old 29-12-2017, 00:51   #497
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
I hate to use Lagoon style reef because of significant tension on mainsail luff must be applied to shorten leech point.



re downwind reefing I am thinking of this setup for my first passage



Get rid of 1st reef and make second reef manual( as per rom L44), use first reef rope to attach to second reef luff attachment. Also add downhaul.



Mild seas and wind and night coming, use full sail. Wind pips up, winch down leech and luff interchangeably until second reef set.



There will be considerable area of sail between full and second reef that will be loose during operation but one hopes lazy jack should keep it in check.



Anyone tried this ?


Very interesting idea!
Separate lines for the luff and leech would work well I think, for up and down wind.
But, I think it would be a mistake to lose reef 1. We use it all the time. Itís been in since we arrived in the Caribbean and we are still hitting over 10kts upwind.
The issue is friction. Iíve found it much easier with only the 2 reef lines in the boom - I took out reef 3. Our reef 3 is now used as an emergency storm sail with manual sail ties under the boom when required.
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Old 29-12-2017, 01:18   #498
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

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Originally Posted by davedindubai View Post
Very interesting idea!
Separate lines for the luff and leech would work well I think, for up and down wind.
But, I think it would be a mistake to lose reef 1. We use it all the time. Itís been in since we arrived in the Caribbean and we are still hitting over 10kts upwind.
The issue is friction. Iíve found it much easier with only the 2 reef lines in the boom - I took out reef 3. Our reef 3 is now used as an emergency storm sail with manual sail ties under the boom when required.
How did you setup emergency storm sail, is this separate sail ?

Re reef 1, something has to be sacrificed, alternative is reef 3, which I am hesitant to do. The other option is to add extra line (1 free slot on L 400) but would require running rigging modifications or live with messy setup.

I am crossing tasman sea, which can be quite lively, so playing defense.
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Old 29-12-2017, 02:08   #499
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
I hate to use Lagoon style reef because of significant tension on mainsail luff must be applied to shorten leech point.

re downwind reefing I am thinking of this setup for my first passage

Get rid of 1st reef and make second reef manual( as per rom L44), use first reef rope to attach to second reef luff attachment. Also add downhaul.

Mild seas and wind and night coming, use full sail. Wind pips up, winch down leech and luff interchangeably until second reef set.

There will be considerable area of sail between full and second reef that will be loose during operation but one hopes lazy jack should keep it in check.

Anyone tried this ?
I agree that the "jiffy reef" system that comes standard is not ideal for downwind reefing. It's ok if you luff up, but that can be uncomfortable in seas where reefing is required. I've often pulled in first reef in 20 to 25 knots while deep reaching. It's not an easy or quick operation. If possible change course to reduce pressure on the main sail.Then alternate trimming in the main sheet then winching down the reefing lines, then slackening the main sheet again. I've tinkered with new blocks on the leach and fitted low friction rings on the luff.

I'd be very reluctant to get rid of first reef; it's the one you'll use the most.

I've considered this solution. Have 3 single reefing lines direct to each of the 3 reefs on the leach. Add one new separate down haul to the luff, perhaps to second reef point. This can be led back to the helm, port side winch on the L400. First and third reef points on the luff would have attachment strops to clip to the gooseneck. The hope is that at 20 to 25 knots the down haul will allow a crew to go forward to attach the first reef strop. The leach could then be hauled down, the main halyard retensioned, the course resumed and the main sheet and traveler retrimed. Second reef could be achieved with two separate reefing lines from the the helm and third reef would remain as is standard.

Any thoughts?
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Old 29-12-2017, 03:22   #500
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

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Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
I agree that the "jiffy reef" system that comes standard is not ideal for downwind reefing. It's ok if you luff up, but that can be uncomfortable in seas where reefing is required. I've often pulled in first reef in 20 to 25 knots while deep reaching. It's not an easy or quick operation. If possible change course to reduce pressure on the main sail.Then alternate trimming in the main sheet then winching down the reefing lines, then slackening the main sheet again. I've tinkered with new blocks on the leach and fitted low friction rings on the luff.

I'd be very reluctant to get rid of first reef; it's the one you'll use the most.

I've considered this solution. Have 3 single reefing lines direct to each of the 3 reefs on the leach. Add one new separate down haul to the luff, perhaps to second reef point. This can be led back to the helm, port side winch on the L400. First and third reef points on the luff would have attachment strops to clip to the gooseneck. The hope is that at 20 to 25 knots the down haul will allow a crew to go forward to attach the first reef strop. The leach could then be hauled down, the main halyard retensioned, the course resumed and the main sheet and traveler retrimed. Second reef could be achieved with two separate reefing lines from the the helm and third reef would remain as is standard.

Any thoughts?
looks good on paper. Will give a try downwind reefing to reef 2 using 2 reefing lines in these pesky 30-50 kn gusts plentiful around sydney. See if one can actually reef decently using this method.
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Old 29-12-2017, 14:23   #501
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
looks good on paper. Will give a try downwind reefing to reef 2 using 2 reefing lines in these pesky 30-50 kn gusts plentiful around sydney. See if one can actually reef decently using this method.
Reef 2 should be easy with 2 separate lines. I'm not sure how well first reef would work with only a leach reefing line and a luff hauldown from 2nd reef position.

Another aid/improvement to reefing systems is to replace lines with smaller diameter spectra. An expensive exercise however.
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Old 29-12-2017, 15:26   #502
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Maybe I can sneak this quick question in regarding the Running Rigging on my 2012 450 F? I can't find the length of the Topping lift line which I need to replace. Lagoon lists the specs on most of the other Running Rigging but even my rigger can't locate the length/specs.

Happy New Year all

Mike
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Old 29-12-2017, 15:32   #503
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

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Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
I've considered this solution. Have 3 single reefing lines direct to each of the 3 reefs on the leach.
All good, what I call manual reefing, and what has been used by most sailboat for years, all reef points on the luff attached to the gooseneck or mast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskie
Add one new separate down haul to the luff, perhaps to second reef point. This can be led back to the helm, port side winch on the L400.
I am afraid this is going to be very messy but please let us know how it works for you.

About getting rid of first reef: sounds weird to me as this is the one I use the most, and was set all the time in the caribean. I got rid of 3rd reef because in my experience I am always going downwind in open seas above 40 knots. So for me 2 reefs is enough.

About going to the mast to attach the reef: I was doing it anyway with the "automatic" reefs prior to modification to check the luff was properly folded and reef point at proper height. Sometimes had to go there 3 times to make it clean ... With manual reefs you just do it once !
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Old 29-12-2017, 15:47   #504
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Quote "Lagoon lists the specs on most of the other Running Rigging but even my rigger can't locate the length/specs"

I have Topping Lift listed as 12mm x 48 meters long.
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Old 29-12-2017, 15:48   #505
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr336 View Post
Maybe I can sneak this quick question in regarding the Running Rigging on my 2012 450 F? I can't find the length of the Topping lift line which I need to replace. Lagoon lists the specs on most of the other Running Rigging but even my rigger can't locate the length/specs.

Happy New Year all

Mike
Hi Mike, I am surprised you can't find it the L450 user manual ?! On mine (L440) it says 42 meters, 12mm diameter, polyester. So yours should be pretty close ...

edit: paulinoz was faster !
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Old 29-12-2017, 18:18   #506
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Thank you for the info. I do have the electronic manual that I downloaded cause the boat didn't come with a hard copy. I'll go thru it again. Sometimes when I focus looking for one thing too long I end up missing it which sounds like the case here. Sounds like I need to order a hard copy from Lagoon
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Old 29-12-2017, 19:47   #507
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

this is what i am going to try first after feedback here:

get rid of third reef and attach rope to second reef leech point using 5mm dyneema soft shackle and add second ring to existing low friction ring. Reposition rope on boom to cater for second reef. Thats it.

Reefing downwind say from full mainsail to second reef (shaking reef downwind is easy) will consist of the following cycles

slacken halyard say for 0.5m
tighten second reef - this will bring down luff point for 0.5m
tighten third reef line that is now second reef leech - this will bring leech down 0.5m

repeat until fully reefed

1st ans 2nd reef will keep existing functionality.

If that works, will consider improving.
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Old 29-12-2017, 20:00   #508
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

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About getting rid of first reef: sounds weird to me as this is the one I use the most, and was set all the time in the caribean. I got rid of 3rd reef because in my experience I am always going downwind in open seas above 40 knots. So for me 2 reefs is enough.
I wouldn't wish to lose 3rd reef either.

We've used it a few times, which probably says quite a bit about the quality of our meteorologists and my lack of ability to decide when to ignore their forecasts!

Earlier this year we did a passage and found ourselves with 30 knots of wind at 50į apparent, gusting over mid 30s. This lasted a few days. Whilst the book says 2nd reef will handle this wind, it was prudent to put in 3rd reef before nightfall. If we didn't have 3rd reef we'd have had no mainsail.

We also discovered that the 3rd reef strop and stainless steel hook can be blown forward and jam between the mast and the turnbuckle of the diamonds. 😩 Its now tied to the sail luff with light string to prevent it blowing around.
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Old 29-12-2017, 20:23   #509
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

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I wouldn't wish to lose 3rd reef either.

We've used it a few times, which probably says quite a bit about the quality of our meteorologists and my lack of ability to decide when to ignore their forecasts!

Earlier this year we did a passage and found ourselves with 30 knots of wind at 50į apparent, gusting over mid 30s. This lasted a few days. Whilst the book says 2nd reef will handle this wind, it was prudent to put in 3rd reef before nightfall. If we didn't have 3rd reef we'd have had no mainsail.

We also discovered that the 3rd reef strop and stainless steel hook can be blown forward and jam between the mast and the turnbuckle of the diamonds. 😩 Its now tied to the sail luff with light string to prevent it blowing around.
you have a point. There is place for another rope in boom on L 400, so one hopefully can keep all reefs and add ability to reef downwind.

how was boat and crew handling non-tradewinds conditions ?
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Old 30-12-2017, 04:18   #510
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

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how was boat and crew handling non-tradewinds conditions ?
Our little voyage was probably far from the roughest sea conditions sailed by Lagoon 400's, but I'll be happy not to have another such passage. Crew are usually more fragile than the boat; one friend who joined us as crew did quite a bit of "technicolour yawning", calling for Ralph, toilet worshipping, doing the "long spit", etc. His seasickness did not respond to an impressive arsenal of drug therapy and could only be cured by the most powerful mal-de-mer remedy; sitting in the shade of a tree.

Luckily he is a glutton for punishment; as soon after this passage he proposed to his girlfriend and even invited us to the wedding. It's probably fortunate that we declined his pleas for euthanasia en route.

By contrast the Lagoon did reasonably well. We found a couple of leaking front windows that we didn't know we had, broke a couple of blocks including an undersized barber hauler block and wore out the second top batten car. The worn car ejected those hideously expensive torlon balls and needed replacing. It seems to me that this second car should be a larger sized car, as it takes the thrust of the top angled batten of our square top main. The top car is larger, but does not seem to be subjected to as much force.
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