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Old 22-08-2017, 17:21   #346
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

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Originally Posted by PaulinOz View Post
"Trying to get new orginals is not going to be fun or cheap!" Would not bother, custom made ones will be better quality and I am betting no more expensive than OEM.
Yes that is kind of what i thought. Actually we didnt use them often other then to watch the stars, as the sun is to hot durimg the day to be up there! They were a bugger to store, maybe a blessing in disguise. We have bean bags we use now.
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Old 23-08-2017, 00:51   #347
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Our bridge top ones took off beach-wards today in a 30kn gust. Saw it happen so was able to retrieve, but it broke a couple of the clips. Need to look at better securing. Not sure they will ever get used though. Need some shade off the boom maybe.

We also have 4 huge mattresses (original) for the trampolines which I suspect we will NEVER use. Current taking up way too much room in a bow locker.

Anyone have these and find them usefull for anything ? (no kids).

Mark
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Old 23-08-2017, 00:54   #348
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

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I thought as people have asked and the 'S' versus 'F' decision is a difficult one that I'd offer some insights on our experience so far.

The 'S' or spor top version is more targeted to cruising couples and I'm guessing is Lagoons answer to the popularity of the FP Helia which was a boat we seriously considered.

Positives:
Close location to the cockpit and galley means communication is easy which has been great underway at meal times or when guests are relaxing in the shade.
Lower boom height makes access to the main sail easy which I've found has been important for jobs like sail bag ties, main halyard, jammed reefing lines, rigging a preventer.
All lines are led back to the cockpit and are easy to control.
Weather protection is perfect. With the enclosure zipped up we are completely protected.
2x bimini sun roofs offer great visibility of both sails.
The large sun pad on the port side is the most popular place for catching rays and seems to always have sun and not shaded by the boom. It's also a very nice place to keep watch from.
Helm seat is perfect for 2.
The fly bridge top behind the helm seat and inside of the bimini enclosure offers much needed storage. We have our grab bag, life jackets, paperwork, binoculars, compass, horn etc all easily accessible from here.
Visibility is perfect for all 4 corners of the boat yet still elevated enough for a long distance 360 view.
Access from helm forward feels safe without any steps although I plan to add a hand rail either side of the helm entrance.

Negatives:
The loss of the flybridge social area.
The space between the helm seat and wheel means access forward must be done via the stern if someone is at the helm.
The helm bimini is an expensive must buy option, it provides much needed shelter from sun, wind and rain and also protection from falling down the hole when accessing the boom.
The stbd winch for the Genoa furling line, Genoa and spinnaker halyards is very high. I'm 5'10 and I wouldn't want it any higher. For women this has been a struggle.

In summary, I think for a cruising couple the Spor Top is a great choice.

Thanks for posting the summary. We're loving our fly bridge at present, but I'm a little envious of your SporTop and agree with the points. Boom access is probably the biggest one. Ours is a tad high for easy access.

Glad your enjoying it !.

(PS: Writing this from my new office, onboard, sitting in a bay in Simi in nice weather 10m off the beach. ... It dosn't get much better !).
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Old 29-08-2017, 23:53   #349
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Lagoon do need to offer a better solution to securing the sun pad and seat cushions.

We haven't removed any of ours since we left Gibraltar but I've been securing the sun pad with the traveler lines across to the port handrail so the wind can't get underneath and I've been bungy'ing the foreword ones in place in any bad weather. The 2 big bean bags are great on the front and with bungy over them have stated in place up to 32kts wind.

I'm designing a cover for all the front seat cushions that will protect against sun and wind. White PVC and some tie downs to the deck should mean we can leave them out permanently without worry of losing them. Will update once we stop somewhere lol by enough to get it done but I suspect this won't be until October. We are currently moving every 1 or 2 days.

Written from a stunning bay (with a ridiculously priced restaurant) on Maddelena Island, Sardinia.
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Old 30-08-2017, 08:23   #350
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Hi Dave,
Looks like you are having such a difficult summer ;-)

May i ask the following:
- I believe you got a 12V Watermaker correct ? Couldn't find the brand, but it was not the Lagoon one ? So you kept all water tanks (700L or 350L) and add water maker post-factory. Could you share (roughly) how much that addition was ?

- do you really use the generator a lot ? (unless i messed up and you have the 220V watermaker...)

- Could you also share (roughly) the cost of the solar instal ? It looks to me that the outfitter in France (near the factory) aren't cheap (15ke for a similar instal of about 1000W with the frame, wiring and all the victron all setup - MPPT and Quatro 3k). I'm curious if Gibraltar is indeed the way/place to go !

- after a couple of month of leaving on board, and especially with what to load before going to Ibiza ;-) - do you find the L450 having enough space for: 1. food/drinks, 2. goodies (personal stuff from clothes to books, computers, etc) and 3. boat related equipment ?
I believe it's yes based on how your boat looks incredibly well organized on instagram videos!

thanks
C-reel
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Old 30-08-2017, 09:16   #351
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Thanks, life is indeed about as good as it gets. We are currently at anchor off Isola Spargi which is one of the national park protected islands off Sardinia. 44/ night for a permit but a must visit imo.

Regarding space.... we have everything! From bikes to baskets, dive gear to drill bits and there is plenty of space. The only issue is cold storage but that is not a lagoon or a 450 issue, it's all boats.

My opinion on water maker is to go 220v. We have the Sea Recovery Aqua Whisper mini which is 110l per hour. I like the peace and quiet of being on the boat so I want to run noisy things like genset and wm as little as possible. We can run both for 1 hour a day and have no issues with water or power. We normally plan this when we have an engine running and are outside so we don't even notice the disturbance. Some days we have been making water around lunch time on the inverter and letting the solar top us back up in the afternoon. Batteries and power is a huge issue and we still have not figured it all out yet. We don't have too many 2 days the same so haven't managed to find a bench mark yet. My gut feeling at the moment is that the lagoon lead acid batteries are crap and I doubt I'll stick to my original plan of keeping them for a couple of years.

We have the 4 water tanks as standard from lagoon and fitted the water maker under the owners cabin floor. The wm was negotiated down from the Sea Recovery distributer in France to 9,000. It's been great so far, we have the remote mounted in the fuse cabinet and it's as simple as push a button for on and off.

The approx prices of the solar and electrical install is 3,500 on electrical goods, 3,500 on the stainless work, 3,500 on the electrical install. I would avoid getting any work done in France, they are not interested in doing anything other than launching new boats.

Gibraltar is well worth a stop for fuel as its so cheap there and I've said before on here, our electrical guys (Marine electrical) were amazing. Other things are not that easy to get in Gib, we loved it as they stock all the British brands in the super market, but I had to cycle to Spain just to get a regulator for our gas bottle. All the big retail stores are in Spain and hire cars are very expensive.

This one is a bit controversial but just for fun. A good thing about the 450 is its speed. I'm no sailor but this boat flies past most others and surprisingly even passes the 42 under only the Genoa (in light winds anyway). [emoji6]
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Old 30-08-2017, 10:30   #352
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

My solar install of 2 280 watt panels went as follows:

-Panels these days are about $1/watt
-I got 2 20A MPPT controllers, cheapo ones for $99 each.
-Got a custom frame made to fit on davits. Not sure I would do that again, but that cost me 2k! was the most expensive part of the deal.

I did the wiring myself, but the biggest issue was pulling the wire. About half a day. I think experienced people could mount, pull, and connect in 1 day.

So 15kE on just the solar seems very high! Even changing to a Victron controller.
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Old 31-08-2017, 12:28   #353
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

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Originally Posted by davedindubai View Post
My opinion on water maker is to go 220v.
In my case 12VDC works much better. Why have a 230VAC watermaker if you have plenty of solar & batteries ? and most especially if your genset is DC ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davedindubai View Post
This one is a bit controversial but just for fun. A good thing about the 450 is its speed. I'm no sailor but this boat flies past most others and surprisingly even passes the 42 under only the Genoa (in light winds anyway). [emoji6]
No controversy to me, it seems quite obvious that a 450 is faster than a 42 in most conditions.Marketing is something but specs are specs.
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Old 03-09-2017, 23:50   #354
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

Well we hadn't made water for a couple of days due to a storm and poor water quality and with 5 on board we got thru nearly all our water. We moved to a nice clean water bay yesterday, I started up the genny, put the water maker on and we we'd filled our 700l tanks around 5 hours later.

The ability to make lots of water and fast is a real luxury and defo something we have got right.
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Old 06-09-2017, 02:38   #355
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

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Originally Posted by davedindubai View Post
Well we hadn't made water for a couple of days due to a storm and poor water quality and with 5 on board we got thru nearly all our water. We moved to a nice clean water bay yesterday, I started up the genny, put the water maker on and we we'd filled our 700l tanks around 5 hours later.

The ability to make lots of water and fast is a real luxury and defo something we have got right.
Yes but you could have done the same with a DC watermaker since your genset is DC, without the need to go through the inverter, hence better efficiency. Or am I missing something ?
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Old 06-09-2017, 13:22   #356
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

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Yes but you could have done the same with a DC watermaker since your genset is DC, without the need to go through the inverter, hence better efficiency. Or am I missing something ?
L450 standard Genset is AC, passes AC to battery chargers - 100 AMP, and feeds all other 230V appliances direct (switchable with inverter).

We have Desalator Duo watermaker, basic machine, fairly easy to fix runs on either 12 V or 230 V - 100L per hour. So when motor sailing you can still make water. When at anchor can run the generator for an hour or two to make water, wash clothes, charge batteries , heat water, run Aircon, etc. We have also installed a mineralizing filter to replace some minerals removed by reverse osmosis, this removes acidity from RO water so water heater, washing machine and other plumbing not corroded and tastes a lot better than straight RO water.
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Old 06-09-2017, 18:45   #357
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

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We have also installed a mineralizing filter to replace some minerals removed by reverse osmosis, this removes acidity from RO water so water heater, washing machine and other plumbing not corroded and tastes a lot better than straight RO water.
Very interesting, it never occurred to me that RO water would be acidic. In most townwater supplies the pH is raised (ie. made alkaline) so that water has reduced reaction with concrete pipes and reservoirs. We get used to this water and it's taste even though it often leaves a scale deposit in jugs, water heaters, etc.

Any filter that "removes acidity" can only do so by adding something alkaline. Apart from replacing minerals, I wonder what the neutralising/alkalising agent in these filters is?

We quite prefer the taste of RO water to most town water supplies. I've been told that RO water is unhealthy because of the lack of minerals, but believe we ģet quite a lot of these from other dietary sources. These days I seem to ingest more and more mineral rich seawater when gasping for breath while spearfishing! Must be healthy. I'm also told that beer and rum are rich in replacement minerals.

It seems common knowledge amongst cruisers that watermakers give less trouble if you are choosy about operating them in only the cleanest of seawater. High output models make this easier, as does large water storage tanks. So, a watermaker is not an alternative to good tankage.
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Old 08-09-2017, 21:44   #358
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

I researched all this 3 years ago, but can't find the material easily, , there is plenty on the internet about it. The minerals re-inserted in the system are slightly alkaline in their own right. The water does not taste at all like town water, it has no chlorine or such, it tastes like mineral water you buy from the store. We also put a carbon 5 micron filter on the drinking faucet to remove stuff that might get into the tanks. When we fill from town water we run it through a KDF filter
"KDF (Kinetic Degradation Fluxion) media when combined with carbon is known to kill algae and fungi, control bacteria growth, remove chlorine, pesticides, organic matter, rust, unpleasant taste and odour, hydrogen sulphide, iron, lead, nickel, chromium, cadmium, calcium, mercury and other organic compound"
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Old 08-09-2017, 21:50   #359
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

We have run our water maker in lots of places, not just out in the ocean, coasts and bays along eastern USA and Virtually in every place in the Bahamas except where commercial ships are present, The trouble with it is the raw water pre filter clogs quickly and at a few dollars a pop starts to get expensive, so we then would use town water. Water maker membranes don't like oil, chlorine., or less then sea salty water.
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Old 08-09-2017, 23:53   #360
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Re: Just signed on a new 450s!

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I researched all this 3 years ago, but can't find the material easily, , there is plenty on the internet about it. The minerals re-inserted in the system are slightly alkaline in their own right. The water does not taste at all like town water, it has no chlorine or such, it tastes like mineral water you buy from the store. We also put a carbon 5 micron filter on the drinking faucet to remove stuff that might get into the tanks. When we fill from town water we run it through a KDF filter
"KDF (Kinetic Degradation Fluxion) media when combined with carbon is known to kill algae and fungi, control bacteria growth, remove chlorine, pesticides, organic matter, rust, unpleasant taste and odour, hydrogen sulphide, iron, lead, nickel, chromium, cadmium, calcium, mercury and other organic compound"
Plenty on the internet, all right! But most is 99.9% BS. I haven't read or heard anything that has convinced this old scientifically educated skeptic that RO water needs remineralisation. But that's just me. I'm sure that its not a harmfull practice. Whether town water needs filtration or chemical modification depends upon the individual town water quality and purity as well as your own belief system regarding fluoride etc. As far as health goes, the most common injurious outcome is bacterial contamination from water filters not being cleaned or cartridges replaced.
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