450: Down wind sails

[Rickthesailor]

Hi,

We just did a passage from Malta to Gibraltar to Las Palmas to Mindelo Cape Verde to Barbados to St Martin. We found that over 50% of the time the winds were right up are arse... and our Lagoon 450 with stock sails does not like down wind in anything more than 140 degrees off the nose, and 130 is where it prefers to be... this really kills our vmg...

What are the down wind sail options that will get me more down wind.

When we left Malta we were told that the stock sails would work fine and that the trade winds would hit our 130-140 degrees off the nose for the Atlantic crossing... they were wrong... the winds were mostly out of the east and swinging 20 degrees to either side of east...

Also, has anyone installed a preventer on a Lagoon 450?

Regards, Rick

[Oliver L.]

Hi Rick,

we've been there - but we had a gennaker for lighter winds. And if that was not an option, either the main had to come down (usually with 20+ kts) or we rolled up the genoa, since it would just flap around behind the main.

As for the preventer, we ALWAYS used it with the wind further aft than maybe 130 degrees. Used a long line from the end of the boom, from there around the midships cleat and fastened to the aft cleat. That way I had less trouble releasing it in bad weather. All of this was on a Lagoon 470...

Oliver

[UNCIVILIZED]

All of the topics in question have been covered at length on here before, so if you do a search you'll turn up lots of info.

As to preventers, it's pretty common to run a line from the outboard end of the boom through a block amidships, at the toe rail (or further forward), & back to a primary or secondary winch in the cockpit. That way you have a strong setup that's also easy to adjust.

For sailing downwind, in order of the depth of wind angles that they can be flown from, you can use; a Reacher, Screecher, Code 0, Assymetrical Spinnaker, Symmetrical Spinnaker. Plus one or two out of the ordinary sorts of sails. Which, on a cat, for purely deep downwind angles, look at a symmetrical spinnaker with a sock/snuffer. They can be found pretty inexpensively on the used market.

[Cotemar]

Another down wind sailing solution would be Sailing Downwind with “Twin Jibs”

When it comes to downwind passages in open seas in less than ideal weather, the last thing on most cruising sailors minds is flying the Spinnaker or Parasailor, especially at night. There is, however, a simple and easily handled alternative of particular relevance to shorthanded crews, it’s called “Twin Jibs”.

What is required is a twin grooved jib furler on which to hoist two identical traditional working jibs on a single halyard. These sails have their own set of sheets which lead through the fairleads and on to the cockpit winches in the usual way.

By utilizing twin identical working jibs set from a twin-grooved jib furler. Most Cruisers and Delivery Captains that have tried it really like its simplicity and functionality. It requires a bit more wind, around 15 kts true min.
It’s very easy to handle. No Mainsail is used. The Autopilot tracks nicely.

“Twin Jibs” overcomes the need for additional crew on longer hauls, and it’s a fraction of the cost of Spinnakers or Parasailor and their related hardware. It’s really just plain sailing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l00xY1D3Uts

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[a64pilot]

I am not of course a multi hull, but I plan on twin Genoa's.
As a mono I will have to pole them both out, but you multi guys don't even need poles?
If true then I can see it being a real boon, poles are a pain.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I am not of course a multi hull, but I plan on twin Genoa's.
As a mono I will have to pole them both out, but you multi guys don't even need poles?
If true then I can see it being a real boon, poles are a pain.

one can run jib on cat attached to cleat to around 150 deg app giving 2 jibs maneouvring space 150 to 210 deg app.

I found very interesting option utilized by L38 owner CF ID Django, search his posts, where main in pushed all the way to spreader, with chafe protection of course. Gennaker poled on the other side. Setup runs at 150 app. I only use main and jib though as poles too messy. Good thing is that one can turn into wind when caught from behind because main is already sitting on spreaders basically perpendicular to app wind. Was faster than mono using main & spinnaker on last short downwind passage.

[2Wind]

Options for Square reaching to DDW.

1. The "Money No Issue" Option:
ISTEC Parasailor - Will set you back around $10-12K. DDW to a reach. Have been flown for weeks on end in winds to high 20's, with or without the main using two crew. Search the forum.
2. The "DDW is too slow - I'm going to gybe occassionally running deep down wind and save myself some $'s" option:
Get a large (circa 160-180 m2) ASI from a good mutlihull sail maker and be prepared to steer 165 degrees true and sober up for a gybe once every day. WMG will be better. You'll likely save $5-6K. With your savings, consider a smaller ASI - say 90-120m2 to use when it gets a bit windy. That might cost say $3+K.
3. The "I carry a spare Headsail anyway" Option:
Use the twin track on the foil - potentially even using the same halyard with a strop, and fly the two DDW. Having a SPI pole of a whisker pole might make things a bit easier from a DDW precision steering perspective allowing you to favour the non poled sail. This will cost you bugger all. The "Cost" will be in the VMG. The advantage - set and forget, easy to furl. Difficulties if sea is running 30 degrees or more off you DDW course where you'd be better running deep but not DDW from both sailing, comfort and VMG perspectives.

There will be countless view on this.....

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by 2Wind

Options for Square reaching to DDW.

1. The "Money No Issue" Option:
ISTEC Parasailor - Will set you back around $10-12K. DDW to a reach. Have been flown for weeks on end in winds to high 20's, with or without the main using two crew. Search the forum.
2. The "DDW is too slow - I'm going to gybe occassionally running deep down wind and save myself some $'s" option:
Get a large (circa 160-180 m2) ASI from a good mutlihull sail maker and be prepared to steer 165 degrees true and sober up for a gybe once every day. WMG will be better. You'll likely save $5-6K. With your savings, consider a smaller ASI - say 90-120m2 to use when it gets a bit windy. That might cost say $3+K.
3. The "I carry a spare Headsail anyway" Option:
Use the twin track on the foil - potentially even using the same halyard with a strop, and fly the two DDW. Having a SPI pole of a whisker pole might make things a bit easier from a DDW precision steering perspective allowing you to favour the non poled sail. This will cost you bugger all. The "Cost" will be in the VMG. The advantage - set and forget, easy to furl. Difficulties if sea is running 30 degrees or more off you DDW course where you'd be better running deep but not DDW from both sailing, comfort and VMG perspectives.

There will be countless view on this.....

All valid downwind options, well described.
May I add one more?

4. Large (150 - 200 m2) symmetrical spinnaker. These can be bought cheap second hand ex multi or mono race boys. Use a sock to launch and douse. Can be flown without poles from 150 -180° in up to 20 knots true wind speed. After that, douse and run under genoa. Not as forgiving as a Parasailor, but at 5% of new Parasailor price, it was our choice.

[2Wind]

Originally Posted by tuskie

All valid downwind options, well described.
May I add one more?

4. Large (150 - 200 m2) symmetrical spinnaker. These can be bought cheap second hand ex multi or mono race boys. Use a sock to launch and douse. Can be flown without poles from 150 -180° in up to 20 knots true wind speed. After that, douse and run under genoa. Not as forgiving as a Parasailor, but at 5% of new Parasailor price, it was our choice.

Yes, your right of course.

I hate going DDW! Personally, only when I "must" - hence my leaning to the ASI.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by 2Wind

Yes, your right of course.

I hate going DDW! Personally, only when I "must" - hence my leaning to the ASI.

I understand. We're flying the old spinnie right now; DDW doing 5.5kts in 10-12 kts true wind sailing south from Noosa. We don't get any extra VMG by gybing downwind.
Just heard from friends battling 20 kt headwinds north of the Percy Islands, so DDW is pretty good for us!

[rom]

Originally Posted by 2Wind

Yes, your right of course.

I hate going DDW! Personally, only when I "must" - hence my leaning to the ASI.

I love going DDW ! ;-) I bought a brand new symmetrical spinnaker (North, 145sqm, sock, about 4500 EUR) for my L440 before crossing the atlantic last november.
Like tuskie said, I used it from 150 to 180 AWA without sheets, sometimes 140AWA. Also without the main so you don't care for gybing. 2 people can raise & lower it no problem.

Not only is it easier to handle a sail that gybes automatically, but also sea motion is more confortable DDW.

I can do up to 90 AWA using one sheet & one guy, and found it very easy single handed to witch from 2 guys DDW to one sheet one guy whichever side.

Of course some cats would be faster gybing with main & genoa, but I don't think that works for lagoons which are more about comfort :-)

[Darksyde]

Best sail i have ever had

[DavefromNZ]

Likewise

[Bean Counter]

Asymmetric being floated like a parachute, with an adjustable bridle to the tack bringing it over to the windward bow, let the halyard off a bit so it balloons out for close to DDW. Another thing we do is put two reefs in the main sometimes and this allows some of the air being blocked through to top of the kite to keep it from collapsing. Good if wind is increasing and you want some mainsail to help block the kite on retrieval especially in over 20 knots. 60ft luff on this one with 2.5oz nylon Hood sail in great condition, ex mono, purchased on line second hand from Bacon sails Annapolis for $1400. Came with snuffer, and a small rust stain.

[Bean Counter]

picture attached