Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-12-2019, 18:32   #16
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misiůn Didacus de AlcalŠ en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva EspaŮa
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 9,578
Re: Anchor Chain Size and Anchor Size - Lagoon 440

So if money is not a big deal here then my thought would be to go with:
5/16" G70 hot dipped anchor chain (4700 lb SWL, 1.1lb/ft) and an A140 or 200 Aluminum Spade anchor. There would be a moderate decrease in chain weight despite doubling the length and a slight drop in anchor weight with a marginal increase in working strength.
https://www.spadeanchorusa.com/anchor-sizing-charts.php
https://www.westmarine.com/acco--gra...05_154_001_512

The 3/8" G43 has a safe working load of 5400lb at 1.49lb/ft. Would give you a moderate increase in weight and also in working strength.

1/2" BBB or G30 has SWL of 4500 at 2.8lb/ft

In reality 3/8" G43/HT will be about 10% weaker than BBB and the G70 another 12% weaker still. The safe working load for G43/HT and G70 is 33% of breaking strength instead of 25% as with BBB.

5/16" G70: 14,100lb breaking strength.
3/8" G43/HT: 16,200lb breaking strength
1/2" BBB: 18,000lb
__________________

__________________
Num Me Vexo?
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 18:39   #17
UFO
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Perth
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 335
Re: Anchor Chain Size and Anchor Size - Lagoon 440

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
So if money is not a big deal here then my thought would be to go with:
5/16" G70 hot dipped anchor chain (4700 lb SWL, 1.1lb/ft) and an A140 or 200 Aluminum Spade anchor. There would be a moderate decrease in chain weight despite doubling the length and a slight drop in anchor weight with a marginal increase in working strength.
https://www.spadeanchorusa.com/anchor-sizing-charts.php
https://www.westmarine.com/acco--gra...05_154_001_512

The 3/8" G43 has a safe working load of 5400lb at 1.49lb/ft. Would give you a moderate increase in weight and also in working strength.

1/2" BBB or G30 has SWL of 4500 at 2.8lb/ft

In reality 3/8" G43/HT will be about 10% weaker than BBB and the G70 another 12% weaker still. The safe working load for G43/HT and G70 is 33% of breaking strength instead of 25% as with BBB.

5/16" G70: 14,100lb breaking strength.
3/8" G43/HT: 16,200lb breaking strength
1/2" BBB: 18,000lb

The point is not so much about strength, but about the extra holding power the heavier chain gives you at anchor.
__________________

__________________
https://www.thecruisingcat.com
UFO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2019, 02:18   #18
rom
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2016
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 723
Re: Anchor Chain Size and Anchor Size - Lagoon 440

Quote:
Originally Posted by UFO View Post
The point is not so much about strength, but about the extra holding power the heavier chain gives you at anchor.
I am glad you get that point right ! Another advantage of 12mm is that you can use a big 90mm wichard snap shackle through a chain link to connect the bridle. https://marine.wichard.com/fiche-A|W...000000-ME.html
rom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2019, 01:46   #19
Registered User
 
fxykty's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Auckland
Boat: Outremer 55L
Posts: 1,088
Re: Anchor Chain Size and Anchor Size - Lagoon 440

Quote:
Originally Posted by rom View Post
I am glad you get that point right ! Another advantage of 12mm is that you can use a big 90mm wichard snap shackle through a chain link to connect the bridle. https://marine.wichard.com/fiche-A|W...000000-ME.html

Hmmm, Iíve never seen a snap shackle used as a bridle to chain connection. What keeps it from opening when it drags along the bottom? Or keeps it from bending open when it doesnít rotate with the chain? That canít be a good idea.

Use a chain hook, or chain grip shackle, or rolling hitch, or even better a soft shackle.
fxykty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2019, 02:23   #20
rom
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2016
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 723
Re: Anchor Chain Size and Anchor Size - Lagoon 440

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Hmmm, Iíve never seen a snap shackle used as a bridle to chain connection. What keeps it from opening when it drags along the bottom? Or keeps it from bending open when it doesnít rotate with the chain? That canít be a good idea.

Use a chain hook, or chain grip shackle, or rolling hitch, or even better a soft shackle.
Well, there is theory (or your idea of theory) and then there is experience. I had a bad experience with Wichard's chain grip where the small pin that holds the chain in the hook eventually bent.https://marine.wichard.com/fiche-A|W...000000-ME.html
The equivalent size snap shackle has a higher working load and has been working flawlessly for me, about 4 years and 1460 anchorages :-) I saw that same snap shackle in use in two different charter companies, the reason is it is super easy to use and reliable.
Soft shackle does not sound like a bad idea, what are you using yourself ?
rom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2019, 02:25   #21
rom
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2016
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 723
Re: Anchor Chain Size and Anchor Size - Lagoon 440

Click image for larger version

Name:	20191213_100034.jpg
Views:	77
Size:	259.4 KB
ID:	204935Click image for larger version

Name:	20191213_100103.jpg
Views:	74
Size:	329.8 KB
ID:	204936
rom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2019, 07:07   #22
UFO
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Perth
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 335
Re: Anchor Chain Size and Anchor Size - Lagoon 440

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Hmmm, Iíve never seen a snap shackle used as a bridle to chain connection. What keeps it from opening when it drags along the bottom? Or keeps it from bending open when it doesnít rotate with the chain? That canít be a good idea.

Use a chain hook, or chain grip shackle, or rolling hitch, or even better a soft shackle.

Soft Shackle
__________________
https://www.thecruisingcat.com
UFO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2019, 08:26   #23
Registered User
 
boom23's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Med.
Boat: Amel 50
Posts: 958
Re: Anchor Chain Size and Anchor Size - Lagoon 440

Soft shackle worked great for me.
boom23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2019, 08:27   #24
Registered User
 
MikeFergie's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Mozambique
Boat: Leopard 40 (2009) & Crownline 250CR
Posts: 316
Re: Anchor Chain Size and Anchor Size - Lagoon 440

Look for ďsailing impiĒ on you tube or Instagram. Brent and Ana have had extensive sailing on a Lagoon 440 for over 8 years around the world. All conditions and destinations. I would go with Brents recommendation on your boat
MikeFergie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2019, 13:47   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Oz
Posts: 920
Re: Anchor Chain Size and Anchor Size - Lagoon 440

A potential problem with a complicated bridle attachment - that in severe condition if the snap shackle or whatever is being used does get deformed and it is not possible to quickly release in an emergency to allow the anchor to be retrieved. I guess having a big set of bolt cutters on board would solve it. We carried bolt cutters capable of cutting 12mm chain (and big wire cutters).
Bean Counter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2019, 16:40   #26
Registered User
 
boom23's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Med.
Boat: Amel 50
Posts: 958
Re: Anchor Chain Size and Anchor Size - Lagoon 440

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bean Counter View Post
A potential problem with a complicated bridle attachment - that in severe condition if the snap shackle or whatever is being used does get deformed and it is not possible to quickly release in an emergency to allow the anchor to be retrieved. I guess having a big set of bolt cutters on board would solve it. We carried bolt cutters capable of cutting 12mm chain (and big wire cutters).
A soft shackle solves this problem.
boom23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2019, 19:02   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2016
Boat: Lagoon 450
Posts: 34
Re: Anchor Chain Size and Anchor Size - Lagoon 440

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
So if money is not a big deal here then my thought would be to go with:
5/16" G70 hot dipped anchor chain (4700 lb SWL, 1.1lb/ft) and an A140 or 200 Aluminum Spade anchor. There would be a moderate decrease in chain weight despite doubling the length and a slight drop in anchor weight with a marginal increase in working strength.
https://www.spadeanchorusa.com/anchor-sizing-charts.php
https://www.westmarine.com/acco--gra...05_154_001_512

The 3/8" G43 has a safe working load of 5400lb at 1.49lb/ft. Would give you a moderate increase in weight and also in working strength.

1/2" BBB or G30 has SWL of 4500 at 2.8lb/ft

In reality 3/8" G43/HT will be about 10% weaker than BBB and the G70 another 12% weaker still. The safe working load for G43/HT and G70 is 33% of breaking strength instead of 25% as with BBB.

5/16" G70: 14,100lb breaking strength.
3/8" G43/HT: 16,200lb breaking strength
1/2" BBB: 18,000lb


You must be insane or stupid to reccomend using 5/16 on a 16-20 ton flybridge catamaran you idea will possible kill some one .i havenít seen that chain recommened buy any manufacture so how can you disagree with that.most comments are saying use the heavier chain and largest anchor at least 40kg and choose one that has been designed recently not something built for noahs ark.the other thing is the bridal it should be strong enough not to break also are you going to speed the extra money on a rated wichard shackle or one from a hardware shop.your anchor system is the most important item on your boat also if anyone can disprove our systems prove it or come sailing with us
steve450 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2019, 19:26   #28
Registered User
 
fxykty's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Auckland
Boat: Outremer 55L
Posts: 1,088
Re: Anchor Chain Size and Anchor Size - Lagoon 440

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve450 View Post
You must be insane or stupid to reccomend using 5/16 on a 16-20 ton flybridge catamaran you idea will possible kill some one .i havenít seen that chain recommened buy any manufacture so how can you disagree with that.most comments are saying use the heavier chain and largest anchor at least 40kg and choose one that has been designed recently not something built for noahs ark.the other thing is the bridal it should be strong enough not to break also are you going to speed the extra money on a rated wichard shackle or one from a hardware shop.your anchor system is the most important item on your boat also if anyone can disprove our systems prove it or come sailing with us

Take a look at the moderate and ultimate holding power figures of the anchor youíre thinking of, then size your everyday and storm systems accordingly. For anchor and chain and shackles and (if using) swivel and chain stopper should all be sized for the highest working load. You wonít be swapping anchors and ride for storm use, just adding on if desired.

However, bridles, especially for cats, should be sized for everyday use and storm use, as the latter system will be too long and too big for ordinary use. In our case, with a Spade S180 and 1/2Ē G4 chain, our ultimate working loads are about 3500kg tension according to the ABYC table. Our everyday bridle is 6.5m per leg of 14mm Samson Proset 3 strand with SWL of 1800 kg. Thatís plenty for everyday. For storm use we have 12m per leg of 24mm Polyester 8 braid (attached to two cleats each side with a 12mm UHMWPE loop to avoid any chafe issues) with a SWL of 3200kg.

We use a 8mm UHMWPE soft shackle and 10mm Dyneema climbing webbing loop. The SWL of this system is about 3000kg, limited by the webbing loop, though we could thread it through again to double the strength. We originally threaded the soft shackle through the chain but itís a tight fit and really eats the shackle, so now we use the webbing loop through the chain.

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1576376772.156072.jpg
Views:	93
Size:	65.9 KB
ID:	205064
fxykty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2019, 19:13   #29
UFO
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Perth
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 335
Re: Anchor Chain Size and Anchor Size - Lagoon 440

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Take a look at the moderate and ultimate holding power figures of the anchor youíre thinking of, then size your everyday and storm systems accordingly. For anchor and chain and shackles and (if using) swivel and chain stopper should all be sized for the highest working load. You wonít be swapping anchors and ride for storm use, just adding on if desired.

However, bridles, especially for cats, should be sized for everyday use and storm use, as the latter system will be too long and too big for ordinary use. In our case, with a Spade S180 and 1/2Ē G4 chain, our ultimate working loads are about 3500kg tension according to the ABYC table. Our everyday bridle is 6.5m per leg of 14mm Samson Proset 3 strand with SWL of 1800 kg. Thatís plenty for everyday. For storm use we have 12m per leg of 24mm Polyester 8 braid (attached to two cleats each side with a 12mm UHMWPE loop to avoid any chafe issues) with a SWL of 3200kg.

We use a 8mm UHMWPE soft shackle and 10mm Dyneema climbing webbing loop. The SWL of this system is about 3000kg, limited by the webbing loop, though we could thread it through again to double the strength. We originally threaded the soft shackle through the chain but itís a tight fit and really eats the shackle, so now we use the webbing loop through the chain.

Attachment 205064

I like your webbing loop idea - How do they go with abrasion? Is that a Black Diamond loop you are using?
__________________
https://www.thecruisingcat.com
UFO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2019, 19:39   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 606
Re: Anchor Chain Size and Anchor Size - Lagoon 440

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Take a look at the moderate and ultimate holding power figures of the anchor youíre thinking of, then size your everyday and storm systems accordingly. For anchor and chain and shackles and (if using) swivel and chain stopper should all be sized for the highest working load. You wonít be swapping anchors and ride for storm use, just adding on if desired.
Yes. Always use your main anchor when you anchor. Never use a smaller "lunch hook" or any small anchor. Anchor as if an unexpected squall or storm is possible. And always use a capable snubber, bridal, or pendant.
__________________

KP44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor, lagoon, Lagoon 440, size

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
440: Lagoon 440 anchor size ozsailer Lagoon Catamarans 9 30-03-2018 07:03
Prop size for lagoon 440 xhogpilot Engines and Propulsion Systems 0 07-07-2017 10:07
What size rope to what size chain? thinwater Anchoring & Mooring 31 03-12-2016 12:02
Lagoon 440 and Deans 440 Displacement gezza Multihull Sailboats 7 03-02-2016 12:12
We are in Croatia and have bought our Lagoon 440 Lagoon4us Europe & Mediterranean 41 21-06-2012 05:28

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:05.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.