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Old 19-06-2015, 18:00   #16
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Re: Ferro Ingrid Ketch 47' LOA For Sale Or Trade

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Originally Posted by Bluegrass View Post
Is the boat currently registered anywhere now? If so, where? Is the registration in your name or the prior owner?

If not, what type of registration did it have last - US Federal Coast Guard, State of North Carolina, Federal Canadian Coast Guard, a Canadian province? Is the registration in your name or the prior owner? When did that registration expire?

Since you are in Canada, and this is not listed through a broker, how do you anticipate executing the sale and with what documentation?

By the state of N. Carolina, the title is registered to me. No, I do not hold a Canadian Registration for her, nor a US federal CG Reg., as it expired before i bought her. Whether that is legal with N. Carolina being technically a non-title state -and me a non-US citizen -I have no idea. I wasn't spending money on lawyers for something like this. If it was a half million dollar boat, maybe I would have...

I can execute a sale with a notarized bill of sale. Purchaser takes it to the NC fish and wildlife, transfers title. It's pretty easy in NC compared to just about anywhere else in US...
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Old 20-06-2015, 03:35   #17
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Re: Ferro Ingrid Ketch 47' LOA For Sale Or Trade

So, the boat is registered in North Carolina but it is not titled in North Carolina. Is that correct?

The U.S. Coast Guard documentation is expired. Correct?

Is the boat titled elsewhere (Florida, Virginia)?

How do you anticipate the financial transaction taking place? If you're not going to be present with identification matching the registration and providing the Notarized Bill of Sale by hand, how would this be done? I mail you a check and you mail back the Bill of Sale? Are you thinking of using an escrow agent?

I know all about the boat. I looked at it a few years ago.
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Old 20-06-2015, 13:51   #18
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Re: Ferro Ingrid Ketch 47' LOA For Sale Or Trade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrass View Post
So, the boat is registered in North Carolina but it is not titled in North Carolina. Is that correct?

The U.S. Coast Guard documentation is expired. Correct?

Is the boat titled elsewhere (Florida, Virginia)?

How do you anticipate the financial transaction taking place? If you're not going to be present with identification matching the registration and providing the Notarized Bill of Sale by hand, how would this be done? I mail you a check and you mail back the Bill of Sale? Are you thinking of using an escrow agent?

I know all about the boat. I looked at it a few years ago.
When Bruce owned it? If you are skeptical about my ownership of the vessel, I invite you to speak to Bruce or Kim... I will provide their contact info by pm if needed...

I thought I already stated this, but I will state again: USCG Registration EXPIRED.

She is a state title with North Carolina -I would assume they could not issue a title unless there is no other state title present.

I don't know what escrow is but I would give you a bill of sale upon receipt of a certified check: If the transaction were to fail then you could simply cancel (stop payment) of cheque. As far as I understand, if you go to the NC fish and wildlife office, with a notarized bill of sale, that is satisfactory for them. You might want to call and verify.
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Old 20-06-2015, 18:51   #19
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Re: Ferro Ingrid Ketch 47' LOA For Sale Or Trade

I'm checking with both North Carolina and the USCG. I don't think you have proof of title, which is legal proof of ownership. I'm not saying you didn't buy the boat; I'm saying the paperwork isn't correct and you don't have what you need to sell the boat.

I think you need to, what is called in USCG speak, return the boat to documentation. Then you can transfer the Certificate of Documentation to the buyer.

I'm not even sure you can return the boat to documentation unless the owner whose name is on the expired certificate properly signed and notarized the certificate for transfer section on the Certificate of Documentation.

The problem for a potential buyer like me is - without a title the boat is worthless. I can't even legally have it in North Carolina. In North Carolina I need either a Certificate of Documentation and registration or title and registration. Either set has to be in my name. Both pieces!

Without one of those sets, I certainly can't sail it anywhere. The first time I'm stopped by either the Coast Guard, a game warden or report entry in the US, Bermuda or Canada, I won't have the proper documentation. Furthermore, I can't ever sell it because I can't prove I own it.

I'll see what they say on Monday, but you might want to consider returning the boat to USCG documentation in your name for less then $100 USD. Then you can sell it without a problem. You can use a mail forwarder's address in Beaufort to communicate to the USCG. Or, ask the prior owners if you can use their address.

Your second best option is to ask the prior owners whose name is on the expired Certificate of Documentation to return it to documentation. Then transfer the registration to them. Now it is all in their name. Then they can sell it for you and the new owner can get proper title.

If you'd sailed that boat to Canada, it was very likely going to get seized when you reported your arrival since you couldn't prove ownership and thus you'd have been unable to make entry. (Arrival and entry are two completely different things) Canada Coast Guard or a province was going to want proof of ownership before they'd have given you title or let you document it in Canada plus they'd have wanted the Canada Customs entry documents.

As a side note:
Escrow is this - an escrow agent, usually an attorney, holds the Bill of Sale and other transfer documents from you and the sale funds until all parties are satisfied. In other words, the escrow agent gets my payment, cashes the check, and deposits the money into his account (legally protected). The agent takes your title transfer documents and transfers the boat to my name. The agent knows the check is good for your benefit and I know the title is good for my benefit. Everybody is happy, the agent send you the money and me the title. If the check is not good or the title is not good, the deal is off and the agent returns my money to me and your title documents to you.

Also, a certified cashier's check can't be cancelled. The bank that issued the check has guaranteed it. The funds have been set aside in the bank own account. A cashier's check guarantees payment unless the check itself is fraudulent (like the bank on the check doesn't exist or the bank is real but it never issued that check). In this case, even if the buyer wanted to cancel payment, it would have been long ago processed by the time the buyer got the paperwork from you and realized they had a problem - if there was going to be a problem.
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Old 20-06-2015, 20:08   #20
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Re: Ferro Ingrid Ketch 47' LOA For Sale Or Trade

Ferrocement erodes and turns to powder someday? I haven't heard this before. I've owned my Samson C-Mist 32 (built in the 1970s) since 1985 and haven't seen a sign of it "eroding" yet. I'm pretty sure it would have turned to powder by now if it were going to do so.
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Old 21-06-2015, 17:26   #21
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Re: Ferro Ingrid Ketch 47' LOA For Sale Or Trade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrass View Post
I'm checking with both North Carolina and the USCG. I don't think you have proof of title, which is legal proof of ownership. I'm not saying you didn't buy the boat; I'm saying the paperwork isn't correct and you don't have what you need to sell the boat.

I think you need to, what is called in USCG speak, return the boat to documentation. Then you can transfer the Certificate of Documentation to the buyer.

I'm not even sure you can return the boat to documentation unless the owner whose name is on the expired certificate properly signed and notarized the certificate for transfer section on the Certificate of Documentation.

The problem for a potential buyer like me is - without a title the boat is worthless. I can't even legally have it in North Carolina. In North Carolina I need either a Certificate of Documentation and registration or title and registration. Either set has to be in my name. Both pieces!

Without one of those sets, I certainly can't sail it anywhere. The first time I'm stopped by either the Coast Guard, a game warden or report entry in the US, Bermuda or Canada, I won't have the proper documentation. Furthermore, I can't ever sell it because I can't prove I own it.

I'll see what they say on Monday, but you might want to consider returning the boat to USCG documentation in your name for less then $100 USD. Then you can sell it without a problem. You can use a mail forwarder's address in Beaufort to communicate to the USCG. Or, ask the prior owners if you can use their address.

Your second best option is to ask the prior owners whose name is on the expired Certificate of Documentation to return it to documentation. Then transfer the registration to them. Now it is all in their name. Then they can sell it for you and the new owner can get proper title.

If you'd sailed that boat to Canada, it was very likely going to get seized when you reported your arrival since you couldn't prove ownership and thus you'd have been unable to make entry. (Arrival and entry are two completely different things) Canada Coast Guard or a province was going to want proof of ownership before they'd have given you title or let you document it in Canada plus they'd have wanted the Canada Customs entry documents.

As a side note:
Escrow is this - an escrow agent, usually an attorney, holds the Bill of Sale and other transfer documents from you and the sale funds until all parties are satisfied. In other words, the escrow agent gets my payment, cashes the check, and deposits the money into his account (legally protected). The agent takes your title transfer documents and transfers the boat to my name. The agent knows the check is good for your benefit and I know the title is good for my benefit. Everybody is happy, the agent send you the money and me the title. If the check is not good or the title is not good, the deal is off and the agent returns my money to me and your title documents to you.

Also, a certified cashier's check can't be cancelled. The bank that issued the check has guaranteed it. The funds have been set aside in the bank own account. A cashier's check guarantees payment unless the check itself is fraudulent (like the bank on the check doesn't exist or the bank is real but it never issued that check). In this case, even if the buyer wanted to cancel payment, it would have been long ago processed by the time the buyer got the paperwork from you and realized they had a problem - if there was going to be a problem.

You've been through this before about this vessel. Why do you still persist in trying to get this boat/or be involved with it? If it there was no proof of ownership, why haven't you just taken the boat and sailed her until proven otherwise?
I do know that the vessel cannot be brought back into USCG registration at this point. All you can do is a state registration. NC is, as far as I am aware, a "no title state".

This means you can still sell a boat or a car without a title.

I can sail the boat to Canada from NORTH CAROLINA with a notarized bill of sale, I am just not allowed into the US.
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Old 22-06-2015, 15:26   #22
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Re: Ferro Ingrid Ketch 47' LOA For Sale Or Trade

No, you're incorrect. For this boat, which is US flagged and resides in North Carolina, you must have either:

Current USCG Certificate of Documentation and North Carolina registration
or
North Carolina title and North Carolina registration.


I didn't buy it last time, but I'm closer to retirement, so I might buy it this time. I suppose I could steal it, but I'm not that kind of guy.

North Carolina wouldn't answer question unless I tell them the registration number and the name of the person that holds registration. How about you shoot me those, and your name if it isn't registered in your name, in a PM?

The USCG has a Return to Registration form, and for a mere $84 USD it can again be registered. I'm pretty sure the last registrant has to sign the form however.
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Old 22-06-2015, 15:31   #23
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Re: Ferro Ingrid Ketch 47' LOA For Sale Or Trade

Quote:
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The USCG has a Return to Registration form, and for a mere $84 USD it can again be registered. I'm pretty sure the last registrant has to sign the form however.
How does a non-US citizen document a boat with the USCG? Didn't think that was possible?
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Old 24-06-2015, 16:02   #24
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Re: Ferro Ingrid Ketch 47' LOA For Sale Or Trade

Yes, USCG documentation requires U.S. Citizenship. I don't think the seller can return it to documentation either. There is a little wiggle room about a company, but that is way too complicated.

If the former owner who had it documented took the necessary action to return it to documentation and the seller turned over the registration to that prior owner, then I, or someone else, could buy it and legally transfer the title and registration to the new owner.

The seller could document it in Canada perhaps, then sell it. That would require importing it (making entry, not reporting arrival) into Canada. I think that's likely impossible because an inspection is most likely needed. The bigger problem would be a U.S. buyer would then need to import back into the U.S. to get U.S. title.

Does the seller have the expired Certificate of Documentation? If so, has the transfer section been properly signed over to anyone?

This is like buying a car - a car has title and registration. Who buys a used car and doesn't get the title signed over? Just because the license plate registration is current, doesn't mean the new buyer owns the car, bill of sale or not. Add the complication that the seller is in a foreign country, and the difficulty increased by a 1000%.

I really like the boat but I'd have to see it again to assess its current condition. But unless I can get title, I'm not going to buy it. I get the seller is in a jamb.
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Old 24-06-2015, 18:21   #25
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Re: Ferro Ingrid Ketch 47' LOA For Sale Or Trade

As a Canadian citizen I Have now purchased three different boats in the USA and never had a single document signed by the sellers I the USA and had absolutely no problem registering these boats in Canada, all I needed on every case as a simple bill of sale. My current boat is still in the USA as a matter of fact in NC and it's already registered to me in Canada and I did not have to pay any taxes in Canada as I have no plans of bringing the boat back there.


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Old 25-06-2015, 02:40   #26
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Re: Ferro Ingrid Ketch 47' LOA For Sale Or Trade

Then the seller should document or otherwise title the boat in Canada so a buyer can acquire title. If it were to be documented in Canada, to then acquire title in the U.S., properly approved CPB forms would be required along with the Canadian title signed over.

If your boat has been berthed for more than 90 consecutive days in NC, it is required to be registered in NC. I doubt they run around checking that very much.
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Old 25-06-2015, 04:29   #27
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Re: Ferro Ingrid Ketch 47' LOA For Sale Or Trade

We have a cruising permit and can stay moored at any port we want for as long as one year. I sold my last Canadian registered boat in the Caribbean to an Austrian and he had absolutely no problems registering the boat in Austria. All he needed was a bill of sale and s letter of deletion from transport Canada.


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Old 25-06-2015, 06:26   #28
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Re: Ferro Ingrid Ketch 47' LOA For Sale Or Trade

This has been a very interesting conversation!


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Old 25-06-2015, 12:08   #29
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Re: Ferro Ingrid Ketch 47' LOA For Sale Or Trade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrass View Post
Then the seller should document or otherwise title the boat in Canada so a buyer can acquire title. If it were to be documented in Canada, to then acquire title in the U.S., properly approved CPB forms would be required along with the Canadian title signed over.

If your boat has been berthed for more than 90 consecutive days in NC, it is required to be registered in NC. I doubt they run around checking that very much.
Seems like the easiest thing for you to do would be to contact a documentation service in NC and ask them what is needed in this particular scenario where the buyer has only a bill of sale and NC registration. Can't be all that unusual if NC is not a title state.

They could also act as an escrow agent for the bills of sale and the funds if you decide to buy it.
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Old 25-06-2015, 15:24   #30
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Re: Ferro Ingrid Ketch 47' LOA For Sale Or Trade

Seems as if North Carolina is a title state.
http://www.ncwildlife.org/Portals/0/...Vessel_FAQ.pdf


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