Saona 47: Saona 47 for a life long monohuller

[Zzmeyer]

Thanks so much! Very helpful. Do you remove the generator impeller as it appears redundant? Also, will the generator still detect non water flow and shut off automatically?

[Zzmeyer]

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

Congrats! We considered going with the Yanmars on our Saba (Due September 18) but found the FP markup beyond ridiculous.

I was also expecting to install Raymarine, but after hours of playing with both side-by-side at a West Marine - we also decided on Garmin. We also considered the fact that Garmin now owns Active Captain and Navionics.

As for props, our current choice are the 3 blade Flexofolds. If you haven't seen the review done by YM, it's worth a read...

Folding and feathering propeller test

Best article ever. I've had (and loved) both Maxprop and Flexifold. I was reluctant to go with Flexifold because I had been so happy with my Maxprop on two boats, but the dealer of my Beneteau said it was the preferred prop for the Yanmar outdrive. I was totally happy. I noticed Maxprop only won on backing power and that doesn't surprise me. I will be going with Flexifold again as the Saona will have the same outdrive units I currently have.

[Helia 44]

Originally Posted by Zzmeyer

Thanks so much! Very helpful. Do you remove the generator impeller as it appears redundant? Also, will the generator still detect non water flow and shut off automatically?

Zz, a few things to help you.. Yes on the Cummins Onan (pick of the litter for simplicity and long life) has a Hobbs style sending unit that detects the pressure of the salt water cooling input to the heat exchanger. Cost is about $25 and mine lasted four years on the Helia 44 9.5 kva. I now have a Saba 50, a 2015, 11 kva, and it reportedly went through an impeller at sort of 100-150 hours until the salt water supply was modified. My Helia had an electric salt water pump delivery that solves the problem. My Saba 50 has a similar modification, but at 293 hours I do not have enough experience with it to know if it works or not, but it is a simple problem to fix... I would not worry about it.. Cummins Onan is the pick of the litter for sure.

Now, as possibly the only Person to have owned both a Helia 44, heavily modified over four years, and now the most over equipped (and only) Saba 50 in Australia, I have a few comments for you on the Saona 47 that may be of help:

First of all, CONGRATULATIONS !! I am a long term 40 year monohull Sailor. Further, I have had many yachts on the California Coast for many years, and three years in Florida and the Caribbean. I am now on my second Catamaran and Citizen of Australia, living on the east coast center of Yachting in Mooloolaba harbour. I do an annual trek up to the center of the Great Barrier Reef continental islands in the Whitsundays for 3-4 months every year. It is sheltered water inside the GBR and Cats are KING for sure.... Here are my comments relative to your situation which I qualify by giving you my experience, not to brag, to qualify my comments for your benefit OK?...

1) Garmin, Garmin, and Garmin.... Superior to Raymarine, IMO.. Nothing that wrong, just Garmin is bigger and better. I have Navionics on my Iphone for backup, but the Garmin is very User Friendly. I have 36 mile radar (for the power) and radar overlay, on Garmin at nav station and up in the helm. Good choice.. Anybody can pick up on how to use it and the short cuts very quickly...

2) The Helia was a little small for us, and the davits not strong enough to carry a center console dinghy that we needed as my Wife is a bit crippled up and needs the back rest and so on. The Saba 50 (only one in Australia) I have been watching and panting on it since it was commissioned in Gold Coast City Marina in 2015, and the davits are huge, like 500 kg or more, and electric hydraulic winches. We are Blessed to have her offered to us as Fountaine Pajot is the most artistic in eye appeal and function. I considered the Saona 47 which is a fair "in the middle" between the Helia and Saba, and was only concerned about the style of hydraulic lift platform for the dinghy.. Study up on that a bit, I have a few reservations.. But it is easy to fix..

3) I have cruised all over the west coast of America for many years. Southern California to San Francisco, northern California in Humboldt Bay, and even up inside Vancouver Island up on the Washington Cananadian boarder and owned a house and slip up there. I was considering retiring there, and going the intercoastal to Alaska every year. Instead I am doing what I am doing here in about the best place on Earth in Australia in the GBR... I am telling you these things to qualify my answers as scientific and not personal opinion OK? Objective to science and observation, not subjective to limited experience like an opinion, OK? Here is the worst thing about the west coast of America: They do not cater for Cats, I mean AT ALL. You are lucky to find even 1% of all slip availability suitable for Cats, like end tie only. So when you talk Saona 47 on the West Coast, you need to have a slip already, not be looking for one. OK? Florida is easy, like an 7 out of 1-10 because of the Intercoastal... GBR in Australia is the 10 for slip availability for Cats. California is the .05..

4) Now on the new Cat from Monohuller: This is not advice, just my take.... I would still be a monohuller for the Northern Pacific for sure.. Cats rule in places like inside the GBR or Med. But in the open ocean I still have reservations. One thing is SIZE MATTERS and with the larger Cats OK, but watch your weather, those 2000 mile passages still spook me in a Cat. I know it is a 25 year old argument both ways... But if God said I had to live back on the West Coast, for slip availability, for storm survival, I would still be more confident is a semi full keel, keel hung rudder monohull, that could get a slip anywhere.. So my advice is Read up on Cat management in big seas.. Like maybe slowing her down in following waves and so on..

Congratulations, the Saona 47 might have been my choice had I been able to get one without a year wait. You have done well.

But I must say I am absolutely in love with my SABA 50 and feel Blessed by God to have her..
Helia 44, now on Saba 50 Serenity..

[yeloya]

Yanmar vs. Volvo have been debated to death. Runnimng a charter company and boat yard we have seen all of it on different boats. The amount of defects and problems we had on each them are not significantly different. If a service poişnt for YAnmar is easier to access for yoou, then Yanmar is a right choice.
Remember also that because of changing emission standards both of them have passed on new generations engines which more complicated, common rail system, etc. That scares me a bit and we don't know which of them will adapt this new system better than the other one. Your engines will definately be new generation.
Regarding the gensets, Fishre Panda has a big advantage of being much smaller and lighter compared to Onans for the same power output. That's a big advantage on multihulls. Onan's however are quiter in my view. The factory mounted genset for FP didn't have a march pump (if this the right term..) and the impeller tends to run dry until it sucks enough cooling water. I don't know if they still do the same but in all of the genset we are mounting here, we always install a march pump.


Enjoy yr boat..


Cheers


Yeloya

[Zzmeyer]

Thanks tons for the past two responses. I'd like to get more input on Volvo versus Yanmar. The only issue I've heard, and I hear it a lot, is the problem with the Volvo black box. It cost quite a bit to go with the Yanmar and if I can save the money it doesn't hurt. The Fisher Panda is much smaller and lighter and I find the Onan not easy to work on the water pump which has been my concern. When I google Fisher Panda they get slammed pretty hard in the reviews. Slips will be an issue in California. The couple of cat owners I know at least point out there are few cats to fill the few slips. The other issue is cost. End tie slips are very expensive here. I'm not particularly concerned with the offshore capabilities. Almost all the cats this size have been delivered by sea and most seem to make it. I'm older, so if things don't work out I will have lost less than 30 years ago.

[Zzmeyer]

Helia 44 - a question. I have three options for the dinghy. The platform which I have ruled out as being too expensive, too weight sensitive and, for me, a potential maintenance issue. The second option is "hydraulic davits" and the third are the standard davits. I have opted for the hydraulic davits as I wasn't aware of the standard davits. Having now seen them they look pretty good. I would get the electric winch but it is still much cheaper than the hydraulic. Also, I'm concerned about esthetics. The standard look good. Are the hydraulic bigger (uglier)? My dinghy will not be center console, but the biggest rib that will fit with a 20 hp Yamaha. Will the standard be OK?

[Helia 44]

Zz,
A couple of things to help you... Yea, what Yelola said. Yes the Panda is smaller... because it is extremely high tech, but that is not what I want. Some of this high tech has gone to far to be reliable in the remote settings, and needs a lap top to initialize it and so on. I also want the old lower rpm tractor engine that comes with the Cummins Onan, runs forever. I like old school simple when it comes to something as important as the generator, and the Cummins Onan wins out in all facets IMO.. It is simple enough that you can maintain it yourself, and like I said in four years my only failure was the salt water Hobbs style sensor for $25, only school technology (read that you can DIY maintain)... Hi tech (read money making for Technician Service with a computer..) If you are going through impellers, you add a saltwater delivery pump in the bilge near the through hull intake... F.P. might already do that now to all of them.

I have the electric hydraulic winches. They are powered by a hydraulic pump in the engine room, with a fair sized tank. The davits are very large and strong box section and very stylish with an indent in the top to tie down a paddleboard or other gear.. I have put a couple of pictures of them on here for you. I cannot say with the "standard" davits are, as I have not seen them. I am happy with this hydraulic winch set up and have a remote for it. The davits are so strong I can step into the dinghy to walk around in it. I use a 3-4 purchase boomvang system from the bottom of the dinghy on one side to the top of the davit on the other, to crank it over so it does not move when at sea.. I love the big box section davits, so I cannot relate, beauty in the eye of the beholder I guess..

On the Volvos, the MDI box just gives you the instruments repeater.... You can run a hot wire to the alternator and get charge, and hot wire the engine by tying open the stop solenoid, and temporarily shorting out the starter solenoid momentarily, and it will run all you want. You just will not have instruments. I think I priced a spare MDI at $500, and did not bother as I am mechanic enough to get her running in a pinch per the above. Shut down is just untie the stop solenoid to kill the fuel, and disconnect the hot wire to the alternator, (which is just two alligator clips and four inches of wire, to go from the 12v output to the batteries on the alternator, over to the exciter on the built in regulator, just the other stud on the alternator.) Have someone show you as it is easy peasy.

On the argument of Yanmar vrs Volvo, in the old days the Yanmar was a good tractor engine and simple. These days I am not sure there is much difference. The Volvo is pressure fired simple injectors. And now you do not even have to re-torque the head at 500 hours. The D2-75F has a "Monotorque" head stud and gasket system that stretches the head bolts onto a special gasket. If you ever have to pull the head you get a new set of head bolts and gasket as a kit. If either went to electric fired injectors and computer drive system with common rail injection pump? I would get the other simple system, that is your decision maker right there. Both are probably 7000-10,000 hour units, sail drives are 3,500 hour units, rebuild or (replace for not much more with new).. I HOPE TO LIVE SO LONG... heh he

Pictures, two bare from 2015 Commissioning and one current loaded with my tender, extra block and tie added from new for double lift now, 50 horse Honda, all good. ... OK?

[Zzmeyer]

Helia

Thanks so much. They are good looking davits. Also, good input on the Volvo MDI. Someone would have to show me how to do it as I am less mechanically inclined but for about $12k net difference in price I guess I can learn. The four to one purchase is just to pull the dinghy in. I'm assuming the dinghy is raised hydraulically?

[Helia 44]

Originally Posted by Zzmeyer

Helia

Thanks so much. They are good looking davits. Also, good input on the Volvo MDI. Someone would have to show me how to do it as I am less mechanically inclined but for about $12k net difference in price I guess I can learn. The four to one purchase is just to pull the dinghy in. I'm assuming the dinghy is raised hydraulically?

Yes Zz, the davits have been added on to with extra blocks, so each side has a double lifting line that terminates on the hydraulic winch head. It is remote controlled, and there are manual switches under the combing on the port side. I think the davits are absolutely beautiful in shape..

Now the four to one boom vang set up might have you confused. It is set up to go from the floor level on the port side to the strbd side top of davit. Normal clam cleat sort of boom vang like you would see on a small sailboat. There are actually TWO, one for each side. What they do is rock steady freeze up the dinghy hoisted on the davits, so when out sailing the side to side minor movement does not chafe anything..

On the Volvo vrs Yanmar, I cannot make any comments. I am only familiar with the older Yanmars and they were tractors. I don't know which is less problematic or longer lasting. You will have to glean that out of the Forums or call a couple of Marine Mechanical shops to get their experience.

Bypassing the MDI is simple, don't let that scare you. It is only a temporary fix to get you going until you can replace it. The simple diesel only needs power to start and clean fuel. The stopping is a mechanical fuel solenoid you can tie open, untie to stop. The engine can be started with a screwdriver shorting out the solenoid momentarily, and the alternator excitation is only two alligator clips and short bit of wire. I have never had to do it, only tested my theory and it worked well, so I will not carry the extra MDI as a spare. All you risk is feeling the right rpm, not hard once you have lived with it, and temperature sensing which you can also check on..

Best regards, you are onto a fine Yacht in the F.P. A SABA 50 goes waaaay beyond a hobby, it is a whole Lifestyle unto itself. The Helia 44 was borderline on growing beyond a temporary or permanent hobby sort, not the Saba. It is a whole world unto itself, a home you can change the scenery on at will, and YES SIZE MATTERS, huge reserves....

[PapaLulu]

Originally Posted by Zzmeyer

Helia



Thanks so much. They are good looking davits. Also, good input on the Volvo MDI. Someone would have to show me how to do it as I am less mechanically inclined but for about $12k net difference in price I guess I can learn. The four to one purchase is just to pull the dinghy in. I'm assuming the dinghy is raised hydraulically?

Cotemar has a thread on installing an automotive start switch bypass. We’re very happy with our twin D55s.

[Zaubel]

First of all congratulations Zzmeyer for ordering the new Saona 47. A friend of mine and me, we ordered one already a year before. Delivery is expected in April 2019. We also ordered the hydraulic davids, not the platform. I’m really interested on the two blockbeach side system, Helia 44 was talking about.
Helia 44 could you send some pictures of the details like block positions?

[Zzmeyer]

Originally Posted by PapaLulu

Cotemar has a thread on installing an automotive start switch bypass. We’re very happy with our twin D55s.

Long chat with my commissioning manager. While I have had 30 years trouble free history with Yanmar, including my latest 80 hp model, a 2015, the price premium would only be valuable if Volvo was a problem According to him, "they have been bulletproof except for the MDI, which has been so bad we've had them fail on delivery of the boat." He went on to say that all MDI in the past three years have been recalled and that they have 12 boats in charter delivered in the past four months without a single problem. I am going to wait and see. Before I have to go "hard" on selection, if the Volvos continue to be problem free I probably will go with the D2-60 upgrade as folks have universally recommended going with the extra 10 hp per motor.

[Helia 44]

Originally Posted by Zaubel

Helia 44 could you send some pictures of the details like block positions?

Zaubel,
Hello there... Look, the hydraulic winch system works well, I have a remote and there are manual switches on the Port gunnel under the edge out of the weather. You can raise the dinghy while sitting in it, it is that powerful... The winches are on the outside of the davits, about gunnel height, with access panels to Strb and locker access to port, easy peasy...

Now when you say pictures of the blocks? That will not do you any good as mine are set up with TWO on each winch.. It is a bit of a pain to kind of guide them on evenly when they start, but they are terminated ON THE WINCH by design with holes in the side of the winch for it to feed to and be knotted off.. Now, mine has TWO on each, because my dinghy is very heavy, 50 horse Honda outboard Centre Console with all the bells and whistles, so the previous Owner put on two blocks forward and aft, four in total, for four separate lifting lines. Complicated, but VERY strong because of four lifting eyes on the dink as well as four turning blocks..

******************************

ZZ, It is basically the same engine, with turbos. See if you have the option of going all the way to D2-75's... My Saba 50 is maybe 4 tons heavier than the Helia, as I have a lot more storage as well... On the run down from the Great Barrier Reef, I did a careful measure and am running about 6.2 litres per hour out of ONE engine doing 7 knots... At 2100 rpm.... That is like hardly working, one engine, so BIGGER IS BETTER for running on one engine. My Saba hardly uses more fuel, like maybe a litre per hour, than the D2-55s in the Helia.

One more thing: Don't worry about the MDI.. I have not had one fail in two yachts, they are easy to get one mailed to you, or carry a spare. It is just a little housed circuit board that runs the fuel shut off and gauges, no big deal, easily bypassed, and a spare is not that expensive like a few hundred US $...

It is certainly NOT a reason to choose what engine. I know nothing of the new Yanmars, but the Volvos have been great. And the new D2-75, does not even need the head re-torqued, new technology is a Monotorque head and gasket that does not need the normal head re-torque and valve adjust at 500 hours.. Simple engine, and with diesel, bigger is better and better fuel economy doing the same work OK? It is just not working as hard, does the same job with lower rpm, and usually better fuel economy, same as in trucks.

Helia 44 now on Saba 50 SERENITY....

[Zzmeyer]

Helia. Thanks tons. The choices are the 50 or 60 so you have me leaning to the Volvo’s. I’ll owe you a drink as it will save me $11,000 (less $15k for Yanmar plus $4,000 for bigger Volvo). My current Yanmar is a turbocharged engine so that doesn’t scare me. What props do you have?

[Helia 44]

I quite like the stock Volvo folding props....
On both the Helia and now the Saba...

I lock the sail drives in reverse when sailing..

They run good in forward and reverse. I would not change them out...

Kind regards, Helia 44