Lipari 41: Information on Lipari 41

[ozsailer]

After a long forced hiatus, my wife and I are dipping our little toe back in the water to determine if we wish to get back into sailing. We have owned catamarans and sailed a fair part of the East Coast of Australia. We are not excluding any makes but are looking at vessels in the 40 to 45 foot range. The Lipari 41 seems to tick quite a few box's but I know nothing of them.

Could anyone assist in advising of their performance, livability, shortcomings, when they started making them, expected costs to purchase etc. Any information would be greatly appreciated. I did note on one of the threads here the author stated the one or more of the internal bulkheads broke when a large wave hit them. I have asked for more detail but have no response to date so any information regarding this would be also very welcome

Ozsailer

[Rapanui]

The boat that allegedly broke bulkheads in a wave was a Fountains Pajot Lavezzi not a Lipari. FP boats generally have a good reputation regarding structural integrity.

[ozsailer]

Originally Posted by Rapanui

The boat that allegedly broke bulkheads in a wave was a Fountains Pajot Lavezzi not a Lipari. FP boats generally have a good reputation regarding structural integrity.

Thankyou for bringing this to my attention, I have attempted to amend by post to this effect but unable to do so. Regardless can you advise the circumstances why how the damage occurred.

Many thanks
Ozsailer

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Rapanui

The boat that allegedly broke bulkheads in a wave was a Fountains Pajot Lavezzi not a Lipari. FP boats generally have a good reputation regarding structural integrity.

The Lavezzi and Lipari are identical pretty much, they are the same hulls. Even though one was called 40 and one was called 41 they both were in fact under 40 foot.

[ozsailer]

Thanks Factor, yes I was aware of the length difference which seems to something that manufacturers like to do for some reason. Just watching the market at the moment here in Oz and Asia and doing our research. The market has certainly changed over the last two years but we know what we want in a boat and our own limitations. We are looking forward to our next search and it will be certainly interesting to see what we end up with.


Ozsailer

[Toys_with_time]

We have owned a Lipari since new and have loved it. Ours is now heavily modified to suit our needs but we have had no major problems with it. We are currently in Sydney and leaving for Bundaberg on Sunday so if you want to chat PM me

[Rapanui]

It is not correct that the hulls of the FP Lavezzi are the same as those of the FP Lipari. They are notionally of similar gross dimensions but the Lipari is considerably heavier and the hulls very much beamier to carry te extra weight.

The reference to Lavezzi hull bulkhead damage is in this thread https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...na-263567.html
I would contact the original poster 'CaptainRivet' to ascertain the circumstances of the damage. Having owned and sailed FP catamarans for 20+ years, I have not heard of any systemic hull damage apart from accidents, hurricanes and the like.

[ozsailer]

Originally Posted by Rapanui

It is not correct that the hulls of the FP Lavezzi are the same as those of the FP Lipari. They are notionally of similar gross dimensions but the Lipari is considerably heavier and the hulls very much beamier to carry te extra weight.

The reference to Lavezzi hull bulkhead damage is in this thread https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...na-263567.html
I would contact the original poster 'CaptainRivet' to ascertain the circumstances of the damage. Having owned and sailed FP catamarans for 20+ years, I have not heard of any systemic hull damage apart from accidents, hurricanes and the like.

Having read the post I have posted to Cat Rivet but not received a reply to date

Ozsailer

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

Having read the post I have posted to Cat Rivet but not received a reply to date

Ozsailer

Hi Ozsailor,
First let me say FP are good and structural solid foam core cats and much better in this then Lagoon (my surveyor knows as due to him Lagoon has to exchange 180 unsafe Riggs/mast, Lagoon 400 and 450 bulkhead break by just sitting in habour or rot away due to balsa core…). FP still are the best sailing performance in this group of mass production cats and price range and a good reliable cat.
But you still get what you pay for means a French mass production cat build by a private equity company with no surpervision of the workers and a quite sloppy quality control at the end.
Your luck you don‘t buy new so former owner will have fixed a lot of these issue.
The next level up in quality is Leopard and the cheapest brand that laminate their stringer in and not just glue…I can recommend the Leopard 38 with this shade Lamelles in front of the window (the one the wynn‘s have). My shortlist was FP Mahe 36 Evolution or this Leopard….sailing around the world too and took this opportunity to fix all issues of the Lavezzi and make it safe and sturdy like no other FP.

I made a list what to look for in a Lavezzi but that list applies actually to most FP cats as they are constructed and produced in the same way and therefor share most of these issues: look at post 2 following
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3596811
The Lipari doesn’t have the „gelcoat osmosis“ Problem as this is specific to Lavezzi due to a faulty gelcoat used in production. Nevertheless you should check for osmosis as all FP and most mass production boats use polyester resin.
My surveyor has a saying that all mass produced French boats the problem stops when the whole boat was repaired completely once whistling: well I can confirm this the parts/stringers that were repaired before due to an old damage holded up, what was original broke.
All FP boats you should check the stringers and main bulkheads because they are only glued in with porcelain hard glue and bulkheads just laminated with small corner laminate in from one side, some even only partly.
Why is it that Lavezzi is know and affected, other not:
Lavezzi are very light build (approx 7-8t with all cruising gear, eg good for light wind performance) and therefor absorb the forces by flexing but the hard as porcelain glue cannot flex with and if huge forces applied (like in my case a 8m partly break/slamming wave onto one hull that was 50% up in the air) this glue breaks and stringers/bulkhead detach from the hull. The other models like Lipari are build heavier (means a bit thicker fiberglass) and therefor flex less and absorb forces differently in normal situations but there will be forces where a Lipari start flexing too.
What enforces this (and this is valid for all FP cats) are the following 2 points:
1) The stringers are glued in on top of the topcoat topcoat is on top and not made for glue attaching to it so the bond is bad. They spare sanding the hull to a get a rough good bonding surface directly to the bare fiberglass. well you are lucky if all separation wax from the mold was taken off guess how I know…I have a 2,3kg glue brick that should glue the BB staircase in place, well the hull part of the piece was smooth like a baby skin never glued anything to the hull as the wax was not taken off before…one reason the bulkhead BB deattached because the staircase couldn’t support it.
2) the hull is made in a mold but material laid up by hand and the vacuum bagged so not every hull is identical on the inside. The stringer and bulkheads are produced industrial and external based on construction drawings. So stringer and bulkheads sometimes fit well with just 2mm glue and well if they don‘t fit it’s glued with 2 cm thick glue, just more glue till they are in place but more then 3mm glue affects their structural support (eg Neel 51 got their cat A certificate recalled because of this, so FP is not the only one f… this up)
How to fix this: Good thing is you can repair fiberglass to 100% and with the right mats and epoxy resin make it much better then it was new. So first make sure your stringers and bulkheads are ok. If yes just laminate with epoxy a corner laminate overlapping by 10cm minimum on all stringers and bulkheads that you can reach. That’s how it should have been done from factory but too expensive for mass production. On a 40ft that’s around 2000-4000Euro costs.

The FP structural integrity is still good as it needed a massive 8m Wave that all this shortcomings and production issues appeared and still then the cat didn‘t break in pieces…I discovered damages 4 weeks later when I got a bottle of wine from the bilge and saw the cracks in the stringers/ saw the front stringer lying completely deattached in the bilge underneath the V-berth. The 55ft mono next to me got a deck sweeper by that wave means all was gone…mast, dodger, Bimini, solar arch, davits, dingy…

[ozsailer]

Thankyou for the reply Captn Rivet, Its muchly appreciated and of great assistance.



Ozsailer

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

Thankyou for the reply Captn Rivet, Its muchly appreciated and of great assistance.



Ozsailer

You are welcome.
So don‘t be afraid of buying a cat that had a damage before, it must have been just properly documented what and how it was fixed. That is in 95% better then the original production quality. Fiberglass can be fixed 100% and the epoxy or binelester resin often used for repair is much better then the original one from FP.
Mine would now easily survive an quite extreme event like this without any damage, the structural tests and survey revealed its structure is 100% repaired and now 380% stronger then new from factory and every structural part can now flex with like it’s surrounding. Damage was around 60kEuro paid by insurance, my repairer fixed it the way it is the most stable possible and I paid additional 5000Euro for the improvements along the repair, a nobrainer.
So if you see repairs on stringers or bulkheads see it as a big plus IF you known/got shown how it was repaired, it improves the structural integrity

And you need a good surveyor, that is a mayor factor. I have one I can fully trust and he flewn to every location for the final survey. Not cheap but saved a lot money in the end. What I have done during search is first asking for a live whatsup video walkthrough of the boat, photos lie or hide a lot, saved a lot time and money traveling. Then within a day or 2 I had a local surveyor just check the boat for 2-3hours, cost 200-400 bucks and saves you a lot of traveling again. No report, just a phone call and/or email with a short list of issues he/she found plus some fotos. Then flew in or even I signed contract without me seeing it, downpayment and flew my surveyor in for the final survey. You have to be fast nowadays if it’s a good cat for reasonable price.
Good luck with the search, FP Lipari is a good choice.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

All FP boats you should check the stringers and main bulkheads because they are only glued in with porcelain hard glue and bulkheads just laminated with small corner laminate in from one side, some even only partly.

I don't know any FP other than the 2007 Mahe we owned for a few years but that one had all bulkheads and stringers laminated in place, no glue used at all. Came from the factory like this.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by rabbi

I don't know any FP other than the 2007 Mahe we owned for a few years but that one had all bulkheads and stringers laminated in place, no glue used at all. Came from the factory like this.

You are sure that was from factory and not former owner? The Mahe evolution I looked at had stringers glued and bulkhead laminated, one side of the main bulkhead the whole length is laminated and the other side of it only on the lower 20cmto the hull. exactly like its done on my Lavezzi. The Sanoa 47 i delivered the same. Helia 44 a buddys boat the same. Athena and also Tobago the same.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

You are sure that was from factory and not former owner? The Mahe evolution I looked at had stringers glued and bulkhead laminated, one side of the main bulkhead the whole length is laminated and the other side of it only on the lower 20cmto the hull. exactly like its done on my Lavezzi. The Sanoa 47 i delivered the same. Helia 44 a buddys boat the same. Athena and also Tobago the same.

If it was the former owner job -and i have no reason to believe so- then it was a perfect job.
Actually i can't remember any significant spots of glue used on that boat. But I don't have many photos left of that one