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Old 20-10-2020, 15:22   #136
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Location: Mooloolaba, Queensland, Australia
Boat: 2015 Fountaine Pajot SABA 50
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Hello Friends,
and Gourmet Yacht Lovers...

The SARS-Cov-2 Pandemic has dramatically changed history. For me as well. It is an unknown future now, difficult to predict, but after spending thousands of hours studying the situation with links like John Hopkins University and a dozen others I have decided next year is going to be about 500% worse..

So, my SABA 50 plans are in flux. The new secondary water maker works well, and is installed in that forward storage locker behind the chain locker that I showed you. It will mean some exterior corrosion to battle possibly from wet anchor chain, so I have a case of Lannox and fresh water pump up there as well as salt.

I am taking a longer perspective on living aboard the Saba... At anchor during the rage of the Pandemic. Increasing on board activities, two kayaks, third freezer out of a fridge under a cockpit seat, that sort of thing.

I have also doubled up the bilge pumps in each hull. Now two in each, the bigger Rule pumps, and alarms when they go off. The circuits for each pair of pumps were on a ten amp breaker by Carling Industries, first picture. I could only find them in the 10 amp, and both bilge pumps would only run for about 10 seconds before tripping so they must run about 7 amps each or a little more. The wiring is 8mm, and I did empirical testing and over that distance 20 amps is fine, so I have increased the circuit breakers to 20 amps. Carling Technologies (first picture) seems to have been taken over by Blue Seas at least here in Australia. Second picture is of the same bolt pattern but a toggle circuit breaker.. Next to it is a rocker switch to run automatic or short term manual on, momentary on manual...

Stainless through hulls in the tunnel, about two feet above the waterline, one for each pump-each side so four in total. System works great, peace of mind buying time should something happen...

The next thing I am doing is probably premature but I am afraid of supply disruption as Europe is getting hit by a Tsunami of Covid 19. I have 7-150 Amp Hour AGM Professional Varta Deep cycle batteries. Third picture. After much study and over 250 installations of Lithium systems in the Outback by my Company, and a many hour study with Enerdrive Engineering, I have decided NOT to go Lithium. WHY?

Briefly, Lithium with all the DC to DC conversion and other issues, with the batteries, is about 3 times the cost. These orginal Varta Euro batteries are six years old and still going. That means the Lithium would have to last three times as long to pay off. Yes the charge faster, yes you get more out of them, but you would have to have them last three times as long to be cost effective and there are all kinds of related problems. A few: DC to DC conversions for the engines, Lithium does not like the heat in the engine rooms, and a whole lot more. In RVs it makes sense for the weight difference, but on my SABA, being an expert on this, I have decided it is just not cost effective. Same price? Yes go Lithium, but at three times the cost it is just not practical. I am an Expert at this, Professionally, and my Company has done 250 + installations in mobile applications for the Outback of Australia. I have 600 Amp hour system in my big travel trailer that can even run air conditioning for overnight stops, but there, weight is an issue and the deciding factor. I don't want to get into a discussion on this, do your own research. But if you go cheap Lithium batteries, without the proper Balancing Systems, and Battery Managements systems, and Low Voltage Disconnects, and Victron Meter management, and proper DC to DC conversions on alternators and proper charging systems management, you are not likely to get more than 6 years out of the Lithium System. We know, we have tried the short cuts. Anyway on my SABA, the wiring and spot for the 1000 Amp Hours system and controls is in the engine room on the port side, and the Lithium would be short lived in the heat of the engine room on a long motor run. That and the full system would be 3 times the cost to do it 100% right with proper BMS and safety systems to protect the Lithiums, so I am replacing the VARTA.

No, they are not bad, put into the 2015 Saba in 2014 model batteries, so 6 years old and going good. However, I am afraid of supply disruptions in this Covid Plague so I will sacrifice some of the remaining life to do it now while I still can.. Living at anchor is heavy on battery systems. I have also added 4 160 watt solar panels and two 30 amp Enerdrive regulators in the Port Engine room.. You can see them, main boom pulled over Strbd, in addition to the solar panels the SABA came with... About another 36 amps practical in peak sun hours.. More in the peak of summer but October is Spring here...

I am also having some of the canvas done new, roof over nav area, front seats and cushions, that sort of thing. Again in case this Covid-19 causes supply disruptions. I guess I am going the SABA for the long haul, Life... Good luck to all of you in the coming COVID-19 Plague. I am planning on living part of next year up in the Whitsundays enjoying the Great Barrier Reef Life activities to weather the coming storm...

Even planted a crunchy veggie garden on the sun roof area on top to supplement frozen veggies should things get a bit more out of hand. In raised boxes, works really good.. Luxury of living in calm waters behind the Great Barrier Reef...

Good luck to all, stay healthy and safe, and God Bless You..
Steve, Skipper of SABA 50 "SERENITY"....
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Old 20-10-2020, 15:32   #137
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Opps,
Pictures from my Iphone go on their side... Here you go...

And the Veggies are on legs in other boxes, so the water can be recycled, raised up salad veggie boxes so to speak with water collector boxes under...
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Old 21-10-2020, 07:20   #138
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Great thread... And good ideas for when I go down this path...Veggies survive the salt air?
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Old 21-10-2020, 15:08   #139
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Hello Boat Guy...

To be fair, I have tremendous fresh water production potential.. My main desalinater is 180 litres per hour and my aux is 60 litres per hour on DC..
I have an outlet up front and one in the stern for fresh water and a full length hose to even wash down windows on the SABA 50... So no, no problems

Now, I am cruising in calm protected water. But if I go over something like the Fraser Bar, that can be bad in the best of times, if I think I got any salt water mist or spray, I can mist it off with fresh. My Saba is maybe 3 metres above the waterline up on the sun deck, and behind the main, really unlikely I will ever get any salt water up there. I would say you need to cover it with plastic if in rough weather on a smaller boat, like a little greenhouse just for that time period. Frozen veggies are great, maybe flash frozen fresh argueably better than store veggies picked green to get to the stores... But what I miss in semi-isolation is the salad stuff. Four of those boxes on legs in a drain box to recycle the water, is great. Four boxes grows more salad than we could eat.. Best of luck with it..

******************

NOW UPDATE ON THE 1000 AH BATTERY REPLACEMENTS ON THE SABA:

Every thing I said in the previous Post on battery, AGM vs Lithium, is still true and valid.. HOWEVER: The Profession Grade VARTA AGM Deep Cycle is not imported into Australia.

That VARTA German Professional Grade Battery is the best AGM. I could put is some other big batteries like the Full River 260 AH, but those bloody things weigh about 150 lbs!! No Way can I get them down in the engine room then sit on the engine and get them up into the battery platforms. There is no room for a second man, and there are no other substitutes. So besides the extreme cost and heat in the engine room, I will have to go Lithium anyways. I am looking at the Enerdrive BTec 200 AH, that is about 25kg, and will have to go a buffer lead acid as a starting battery then over to DC to DC charger in the LIthium Charging Algorithm on both engines. The BTec has active balancing on each battery, so four of five of them in parallel may be the only way out of my predicament. I am told by the Enerdrive Engineering Staff, that they are working on an active balancing BMS not out yet, so to make sure they all balance once a year disconnect one at a time and charge it over night..

Will keep you Posted.. Big Job... Victron Chargers changed over to Lithium Algorithm, Victron control meter, LVD and more has to be done...

Kind regards, and good luck to all trying to do Yacht Covid-19 protection.. We have a Tsunami of Covid coming next year... Serenity Skipper, and Mad Engineer, Steve
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Old 23-10-2020, 17:10   #140
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Rgr, H44....
Thanks
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Old 30-10-2020, 15:41   #141
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

LATEST UPDATE AGMS VRS LITHIUM

Hello Friends, here is the problem. Not money problem for me, not that LIthiums are not better, not that they are not lighter, not that they do not perform better... It is just too much of massive job, and here is an outline of why.

I (my Staff) have put in more than 500 Lithium systems up to 900 AH in mobile settings in the Outback. Trust me I am a Lithium Expert, to coin a label...

Now, Amateur Lithium installations without all the safeguards necessary, kills the Lithium batteries in about the life time of normal AGM batteries. You need to have proper charging systems in the right algorithm, solar regulators in the correct algorithm, my Victron combi Inverter Chargers would need modifications or reprogramming, you need LVD Low Voltage Disconnects so they cannot be accidentally abused, and you need the proper BMS Battery Management System for each Lithium battery so the cells all equalize or you start to devalue the system into failure. Now a lot of people that sell the Lithium can do all that, and some of the higher quality Lithium 100 AH to 200 AH batteries have the BMS on board... However, it all goes a lot deeper if you want the Lithium to last long enough to be cost effective:

I am writing this to be of Service to you my Friends, and tell you what I am doing because of it all.. Now the next layer is the engines alternators. You have to have a buffer AGM style starting battery, and then DC to DC chargers on each engine in the proper Lithium algorithm (proper charging curve for Lithium) or you grossly cut their life in half to maybe only five years like AGMs.. But then again some people get 8 years out of AGMs) Anyway besides the wiring in of DC to DC charger in the Lithium algorithm, these type of chargers cannot run all the time, they have to be ignition relay tripped to start. Still there is more: All the Lithiums that do have BMS on each battery (most quality ones that are not just gimmick sales) when you put these commonly sized 100-200 AH batteries together, the individual BMS systems are not enough. You have to have an overall BMS type system over all the batteries, called Active Balancing. It works just like the individual battery systems BMS, levelling up the charge, equalising the cells, but on the overall system. It treats all the batteries like bigger cells, and keeps them equalised in all the charging systems. Failure to have this overall Active Balancing BMS style system as well, means eventually one battery in parallel, will go down and not recover and kill the rest in a slowly failing system.

But Wait, there is more!! Heh he.. You have to also have an overall Metering system like Victron, that tells you the state of charge, but also regulates when the batteries are being charged and by how much. Without this system you would have to be an Attendant doing it all manually and that is nearly impossible. You have to have like an Enerdrive or Victron battery management meter, that trips something like a Blue Sea Relay driver, to run the LVD and all the charging systems so you do not continually charge or undercharge the system. Both again will cut the Lithium Life in half... You cannot keep charging the Lithium after it is fully charged, the overall Meter has to regulate all the charging systems or again you shorten the life of the Lithiums..

I am telling you this, because I am in the Business, and to get a 1000 AH system to run something like the Saba 50, is a massive expenditure like $18,000- $20,000 Aus in Lithium and equipment, and a week to ten days of solid work by a qualified Technician wiring everything i properly or the system will not pay off with long life... We are about 12 months backed up on Orders, I cannot pull one of my Electrical Technicians off for a week-ten days to redo my yachts whole charging systems.. After careful consideration: I am staying with AGMs

Long and the short of it, since the extra 150 kg of weight does not bother the Saba, I am going to just stay AGM batteries. I can replace them all for about $3000 (Aus) in over 1000 AH total, like the original Varta batteries. The design of all the equipment is already there to maintain them properly. My German Varta batteries are now about six years old, and I am only doing this now because of anticipated Covid supply disruptions.. It is a pre-emptive move. My point for you is, you can buy four sets of AGM batteries for the cost of the Lithium. And while yes the Lithium outperforms, IMO in my case not worth the expense and hassle. I have an 11 kva Cummins Onan now six years old and only has 604 hours on it.. And the Lithium system has to work flawlessly to make itself cost efficient. Other than the weight factor in our case in the Outback in mobile applications it is not necessarily worth the expense.


I am going to buy four 280 AH AGM big trawler type batteries instead. You do what is best for you. The Lithium outperforms but at several times the cost without the proper management systems I have outlined above for you, they are expensive and not going to last long enough to be cost effective.
This post was in "Your Best Interests"


Skipper Owner on Saba 50 "Serenity", getting ready to live at anchor during the Covid Plague likely to get out of hand next year in Australia as Lockdowns are quit.. Lockdowns banckrupt the country, threaten to topple Governments in Australia, and the Population little affected in the 20-40 year old range start to demonstrate and protest and riot.. Just like Europe.. Australia IMO is likely to follow the Euro pattern and go grim reaper ending lockdowns..

Good luck to all of you and God Bless....
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Old 31-10-2020, 14:47   #142
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Addendum to the above Post on going AGM or Lithium batteries on the Saba:

My Lithium Battery choice was the Enerdrive 300Ah Compact Pro Series Lithium Battery. This is in a powder coated case, with some higher end features, the best made IMO... Enerdrive "Top of the Line"...

Now this is 50 kg each, so three of them 150 kg. The 280 Amp Hour AGMs are 62 kg each, for of them 248 kg. In summary: In this case, on a Saba 50, it is less than 100 kg more.

YES the Lithium will charge easier, YES the Lithium will charge faster, YES they will accept solar easier. YES, I would get about 60% more out of the Lithium in useable power.. I have proven all of that. However, it is a massive undertaking on the Saba as there would have to be massive modifications done to all the equipment and about a week to ten days for an Electrical Technician to add all the equipment, new solar regulators, new DC to DC chargers, separate starting batteries for the engines, Victron Combi Inverter charger modifications, and more.

In short, in my Professional Opinion, when I have two generators and my main generator is a Cummins Onan with only 604 hours in six years, on what is probably a 10,000 hour or more unit, I am going the AGMs. Yes it will take longer to charge my batteries on the Cummins Onan, but we run big water maker and air conditioning is the hot spells anyway. If everything went perfect the Lithium could last longer, but at four times the cost of the AGMs and a week to ten days of a Technician, IMO it is not worth the effort and not cost effective. Not only that, but Enerdrive are estimating 1600 cycles or more, and the AGM Company is saying 1600 as well. So, it comes down to a little more diesel, or four times the cost after the Technician about 5 times the cost??? The SABA will not notice the extra weight.

With the added starting battery on the D2-75's, and DC to DC chargers, the weight difference is probably only 80 kg, so throw that one out the window two... Five times the cost to do it properly, I have decided to stick with the AGMs... And I am well into the Lithium Business in the mobile applications.

FINAL NOTE: If I was building the SABA from scratch, I would go the Lithium batteries and charging systems WITHOUT A DOUBT. But to convert over all the extensive systems on the Saba now, with all the added cost of doing it retroactively? I just do not think it worth the extreme expense and effort.

"In your best Interests" Skipper/Owner Saba 50 "Serenity"..
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Old 11-11-2020, 15:11   #143
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

COMPLETE REVERSAL.... Per the previous two posts on AGM / LITHIUM Engineering.. I am going the full big Lithium System.... Why the reversal?

On my final system design engineering study, the generator run time to get the full Boost Cycle on the AGM batteries, is just too long. Without the Boost cycle to clean the plates and do full equalisation at least every week or so they will not last that long.. So, my Covid Prep is to go the full Lithium system, as I expect it rage in Australia next year like Europe and America... I am anticipating weathering it living at anchor.. IMO We cannot afford the Lockdowns here, economic bankruptcy, social unrest and demonstrations, and Political revolt is overcoming the mandated lockdowns...

My Lithium Battery choice is the Enerdrive 300Ah Compact Pro Series Lithium Battery. This is in a powder coated case, with some higher end features, the best made IMO... Enerdrive "Top of the Line"... We have maybe 400-500 in the field in mobile settings in the Outback of Australia..

YES the Lithium will charge easier, YES the Lithium will charge faster, YES they will accept solar easier. YES, I would get about 60% more out of the Lithium in useable power.. I have proven all of that. However, it is a massive undertaking on the Saba as there would have to be massive modifications done to all the equipment and about a week to ten days for an Electrical Technician to add all the equipment, new solar regulators, new DC to DC chargers, separate starting batteries for the engines, Victron Combi Inverter charger modifications, and more.

Notes on the final Systems Engineering design: I am putting in a 3kw Victron Combi Unit, 120 amp charger, 3000 watt inverter.. I will have the 60 amp and 80 amp Victron Combi units as spares or for another project. They are not ready for the Lithium system algorithm and would conflict with each other if modified. I also have to have the Pro Compact 300 AH Lithiums BMS modified on each one, to run three of them under a general BMS sort of system called Active Balancing so they do not get out of sync..

I will be leaving one Varta Euro Pro AGM 150 AH on for each engine. They are still good, and store the other five at home on a timer charge and run them out. They are so big and the Volvo D2-75s start so easy, it is not much of a discharge on the big Varta 150s even though they are Deep Cycle and not meant for starting batteries it is not much of a jolt. And: I get some extended use out of them even though 6 years old. I would not be doing this, but they are going to lift all travel restrictions for the Christmas School Holidays in Australia so I expect the Covid to come raging on here by April May our Fall down under, going into winter.. I anticipate living at anchor up in the Islands of the Great Barrier Reef, so three things will be important: Lithium, Lithium, and Lithium. It is going to be an expensive system, but I think the investment well spent and it probably will increase the value of the Saba as much or more. It will be about a $20,000 (Aus) system.

In addition to the Victron Lithium algorithm Combi unit, there will be a DC to DC charger in Lithium algorithm off each engine starting battery. These Volvo alternators are $1000 each here in Australia, and the onboard regulator is not available. In Lithium, they would probably be twice as much. Sooooo, the starting battery is designed to be a buffer, and the DC to DC chargers will come off of that. I will also have two Epro 60 amp chargers as backup, wired in, to run off the Generator.

Finally there has to be the top end TPS type Victron style Battery Meter BMS installed. It will be programmed to run a couple of Blue Sea type relays to regulate the charge on and off as needed, and an LVD Low Voltage Disconnect safety system and so on. You need this system not for the readout of state of charge and so on, you need it to start and stop the charging cycle so you do not abuse the Lithiums. All in all this is a very up market system, but it is necessary or you run the Lithiums to an early demise.. The Professional Grade Lithiums 300 AH in powder coated armour cases run about $A 4000 each so you want them to last... I would hope ten years..

If you just do the average Lithium battery install without all the right BMS and Active Balancing and the rest, you would be lucky to get five years out of them. In that case you might as well stay with AGM style batteries at about 1/4 the cost, like 1/10th the cost with your stock AGM charging systems not having to be modified or replaced.

You can take this for the latest Professional advice. My Company has done maybe 500? Lithium installations in mobile units for the Outback, and we only do it properly with the latest technology. I hope this has been a help for you.

Kind regards, Skipper, Saba 50 "Serenity"......
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Old 20-12-2020, 20:03   #144
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Amazing thread Helia 44! Thank you for sharing all of this valuable information for Saba owners. I've just signed a Purchase Agreement for a 2017 FP Saba 50 4-Cabin Oceanic Version, very excited!

How is it going on the battery and electrical refit? Curios to hear!

Also love the info on the dinghy size and weight. I am looking at a Highfield SP420 to put on the back of the boat and was thinking it would not fit. Now after reading your information, I am thinking it will!
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Old 21-12-2020, 22:00   #145
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Thumbs up Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Hello PureEnergy!!!

Right Oh, since I have a dedicated Saba 50 devotee that appreciates my efforts, here you go. We are using the Christmas Break to pull my most advanced Lithium Installation Electrician/Marine Engineer to do the job with me on my Saba. We are about 1/4 of the way through..

I pulled out all seven of the Varta Professional 150 AH Deep Cycle Batteries, wow are they super batteries, I mean if I could get them in Australia (can't) I would not have gone Lithium. I let them set for over an hour to achieve "resting state" voltages and they all stayed above 13 volt. I have five in my garage and two on the Saba. They are 5 years old solid, 6 years old about March of 2021. They seem perfect but with the Covid RAGING I did not want to have them go out, and have trouble replacing them. If the Covid gets out of hand here in Queensland, I plan on going up to the Whitsunday Islands to live primarily at anchor. Hence the Lithium decision, not taken lightly, about a $20,000 affair.

First Picture is of the mess, day two, port engine room. The second picture is of Varta (2) still in place. Above them are three Professional Grade 300 AH Lithium batteries. Down the right side of them are the ABS (Active Balancing System units). And you can see the 50 kg 300 AH Enerdrive Professional Grade Lithium Batteries in powder coated alloy cases. These could last 10-15 years or longer with the ABS, and the main BMS management systems..

How the system is going to basically work? (and I do it for a living with over 500 units in the field in the Outback) is I am keeping one Varta 150 AH AGM battery in each,as starting batteries for Port and Starboard engines. They will be two independent charging systems, with the big Varta as the Buffer to the Lithiums. The engines will charge the Varta 150 AH battery. The Lithium will be charged by the engines via a DC to DC charger with the lithium algorithm, with a VSR Voltage Sensitive Relay to fire the DC to DC charger up, with the VARTA AGMs as a buffer. They will charge independently, as I run long term on only one engine at a time. If I ran them together off one engine I would kill the alternator as it would be on too hard too long. It would have to be replaced with a larger continuous duty one and that is a HUGE effort on its own with mounting brackets and so on.. So I am running them independently with one Varta as a buffer, and after it a VSR to start the DC to DC charger for each engine port and starboard independently.

Next picture after the DC to DC is the main control board, the with BMS and relay driver to run the charging circuits. I am going a 3000 watt inverter, 120 amp charger Combi unit (not unpacked yet) that will charge the 900 AH of Lithiums on shore power or my 11 kva Cummins Onan gen set....

This is day two with my Marine Engineer/ Electrician: One of five Electricians I employ for installations full time and we are backed up with orders 12 months in advance. We have about four more days of work over the Christmas Holidays, I am paying him well, and with a broken family and a Daughter part time, he needs the money, so will work about half of the Holiday.

It is a HUGE undertaking To do it right with LVD disconnects and proper management systems. Anyone can slam in cheap 100-150 AH Lithiums, but without the ABS and BMS and LVD systems, they are not going to last much longer than standard AGM batteries per the posts above.

I am afraid the COVID WAR is far from being over. OK I am a Chickenshirt: I do not think I am going to take the Covid Vaccine. Some Epidemiologists are even afraid of it. AIDS HIV and Hepatitis are ALL Corona Viruses, and this vaccine messes with your immune system. Even the Australian CIL version has been abandoned because of HIV false positives. I will happily live at anchor on and off up in the Great Barrier Reef Whitsunday Islands until Civilisation returns. THAT is the only reason I have elected to go this big hassle and expense. If I could get the original Varta (German) Professional Grade 150 AH, 825 cold cranking amps AGMS in Australia from Germany, I would have just bought them.... Trust me...

However, in summary: Since I cannot get the German Professional AGMS, I am spending the big money and my Christmas Holiday doing the complete conversion. What is it really worth?? Money no object, my time and $20,000..?? But: I will gain faster charging times, and double the power, and a whole day extra without charging even with three freezers and two fridges, and easier solar intake with near zero resistance, so half the generator time and half the diesel consumption....

I hope my efforts, and the three previous posts of the two week quandary of pros and cons... Helps someone...

God Bless you all, Merry Christmas, and don't forget what the Holiday is about. Do something random nice for someone you don't even know, and make the Lord smile. Maybe there is hope for Humanity yet...

Skipper/Owner, Saba 50 number 11, "SERENITY" my "Last Resort" in many ways....
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Old 21-12-2020, 22:02   #146
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Sorry, I did not rotate the pictures from my IPhone, you will have to look at them at 90 degrees......
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Old 22-12-2020, 06:02   #147
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

Congrats on the LFP Steve, I'm sure you'll love it.

We've just completed our LFP upgrades on Ghost. As you're an expert in the field, you've probably seen it all. I'd be curious to see what you think as I took a rather "atypical" approach. I posted the build details at

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ll-237840.html

As always, thanks for sharing!
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw
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Old 22-12-2020, 06:44   #148
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

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Originally Posted by Helia 44 View Post
Hello PureEnergy!!!

Right Oh, since I have a dedicated Saba 50 devotee that appreciates my efforts, here you go. We are using the Christmas Break to pull my most advanced Lithium Installation Electrician/Marine Engineer to do the job with me on my Saba. We are about 1/4 of the way through..

I pulled out all seven of the Varta Professional 150 AH Deep Cycle Batteries, wow are they super batteries, I mean if I could get them in Australia (can't) I would not have gone Lithium. I let them set for over an hour to achieve "resting state" voltages and they all stayed above 13 volt. I have five in my garage and two on the Saba. They are 5 years old solid, 6 years old about March of 2021. They seem perfect but with the Covid RAGING I did not want to have them go out, and have trouble replacing them. If the Covid gets out of hand here in Queensland, I plan on going up to the Whitsunday Islands to live primarily at anchor. Hence the Lithium decision, not taken lightly, about a $20,000 affair.

First Picture is of the mess, day two, port engine room. The second picture is of Varta (2) still in place. Above them are three Professional Grade 300 AH Lithium batteries. Down the right side of them are the ABS (Active Balancing System units). And you can see the 50 kg 300 AH Enerdrive Professional Grade Lithium Batteries in powder coated alloy cases. These could last 10-15 years or longer with the ABS, and the main BMS management systems..

How the system is going to basically work? (and I do it for a living with over 500 units in the field in the Outback) is I am keeping one Varta 150 AH AGM battery in each,as starting batteries for Port and Starboard engines. They will be two independent charging systems, with the big Varta as the Buffer to the Lithiums. The engines will charge the Varta 150 AH battery. The Lithium will be charged by the engines via a DC to DC charger with the lithium algorithm, with a VSR Voltage Sensitive Relay to fire the DC to DC charger up, with the VARTA AGMs as a buffer. They will charge independently, as I run long term on only one engine at a time. If I ran them together off one engine I would kill the alternator as it would be on too hard too long. It would have to be replaced with a larger continuous duty one and that is a HUGE effort on its own with mounting brackets and so on.. So I am running them independently with one Varta as a buffer, and after it a VSR to start the DC to DC charger for each engine port and starboard independently.

Next picture after the DC to DC is the main control board, the with BMS and relay driver to run the charging circuits. I am going a 3000 watt inverter, 120 amp charger Combi unit (not unpacked yet) that will charge the 900 AH of Lithiums on shore power or my 11 kva Cummins Onan gen set....

This is day two with my Marine Engineer/ Electrician: One of five Electricians I employ for installations full time and we are backed up with orders 12 months in advance. We have about four more days of work over the Christmas Holidays, I am paying him well, and with a broken family and a Daughter part time, he needs the money, so will work about half of the Holiday.

It is a HUGE undertaking To do it right with LVD disconnects and proper management systems. Anyone can slam in cheap 100-150 AH Lithiums, but without the ABS and BMS and LVD systems, they are not going to last much longer than standard AGM batteries per the posts above.

I am afraid the COVID WAR is far from being over. OK I am a Chickenshirt: I do not think I am going to take the Covid Vaccine. Some Epidemiologists are even afraid of it. AIDS HIV and Hepatitis are ALL Corona Viruses, and this vaccine messes with your immune system. Even the Australian CIL version has been abandoned because of HIV false positives. I will happily live at anchor on and off up in the Great Barrier Reef Whitsunday Islands until Civilisation returns. THAT is the only reason I have elected to go this big hassle and expense. If I could get the original Varta (German) Professional Grade 150 AH, 825 cold cranking amps AGMS in Australia from Germany, I would have just bought them.... Trust me...

However, in summary: Since I cannot get the German Professional AGMS, I am spending the big money and my Christmas Holiday doing the complete conversion. What is it really worth?? Money no object, my time and $20,000..?? But: I will gain faster charging times, and double the power, and a whole day extra without charging even with three freezers and two fridges, and easier solar intake with near zero resistance, so half the generator time and half the diesel consumption....

I hope my efforts, and the three previous posts of the two week quandary of pros and cons... Helps someone...

God Bless you all, Merry Christmas, and don't forget what the Holiday is about. Do something random nice for someone you don't even know, and make the Lord smile. Maybe there is hope for Humanity yet...

Skipper/Owner, Saba 50 number 11, "SERENITY" my "Last Resort" in many ways....
Awesome Steve - Thank you for the information. It sounds like your company is something like Redarc out of Australia - which I run on my fully built overlanding rig (Toyota Tacoma 4x4) with DCDC charger, RedVision, 300Ah lithium, Manager 30 and every bell and whistle you can imagine.

Interesting on the 900Ah selection. Do you think that is enough Ah for the long term? What is the solar setup? I ask because I was thinking that to run washer and dryer, household appliances and air conditioners that I would need 2,000Ah and about 2,000 watts of solar as well (1,300 watts off the back and 700 watts elsewhere). Then was thinking Victron on the inverters and controllers. I am new with yachts though so not sure. I'm running "Outback" gear on my house... 7kW inverter/controllers and 2,500Ah with 7,800 watts of solar. It works well and am basing some of my power needs for the FP on that.

Dinghy wise - how are the davits holding up with the weight of your 4.2m tender?

You're a smart and godly man not to take the V@X! Don't do it! It'll mutate your DNA... not a good thing. Crazy what this world has come to. Keep having fun in nature!

Cheers to health,


Ryne
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Old 22-12-2020, 14:32   #149
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

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Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest View Post
Congrats on the LFP Steve, I'm sure you'll love it.

We've just completed our LFP upgrades on Ghost. As you're an expert in the field, you've probably seen it all. I'd be curious to see what you think as I took a rather "atypical" approach. I posted the build details at

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ll-237840.html

As always, thanks for sharing!
Hello CalmSeasQuest... Love your boat GHOST, BEAUTIFUL!!!

Now I did read the synopsis of what you did. Please do not take this personally, but here is what I really think, my Professional opinion...

Holy Shirt!! You are going to have to be an Electronic Technician to maintain all of that, it boggles my mind! We operate in the Outback with KISS Engineering (Keep It Simple Stupid). I mean you are going to need thousands of dollars of spares, to do modular replacement of components, and IMO this is WAAAAAY to advanced for at least 99% of all people. And IMO the Marine environment is worse than the Outback for sure..

Even on my relatively simple (by comparison) system, I am going to get two spare ABS units, and the Complete BMS unit and relay driver, and a spare DC2DC charger in case anything fails. To back up my 3000 watt Combi Unit, I already have two Enerdrive 60 amp chargers on the Lithium algorithm that can run together... Salt air and rough environment, heck you just built a space shuttle. No offence but.... Wow, I would not even have attempted to build that, and I am in the Business.. Please post my comments on your Thread, as a warning, NO ONE should attempt this unless they are an Electrical Technician/Engineer with thousands of $ in spare components.. I know what I am talking about, we do all the trouble shooting for the systems in the field, as my Customers cannot troubleshoot their own systems..

We do have Inverters and Combi Units like the Victron, that can run AC units for travel in the outback. We put them on VSRs (Voltage Sensitive Relays) to shut down the air conditioning so as not to run the Lithium systems down to LVD (Low Voltage Disconnect) as they would not have water pumps or electric flush toilets or refrigeration until they got back in 5% of the charge and could turn on the LVD to bring the Lithiums back on line. But that is on mobile systems in the Outback.

On my yacht SERENITY I will rely on the my 11kva Cummins Onan, and I have spares for it, but it is probably a 10,000 hour unit at only about 565 hours now? If I want air, or charging, I will turn on the 11 kva. It needs to be run and will last longer if used and is pretty quiet I am isolating the alternators from the system with the 150 AH Varta on each, and pulling the excess out with the DC to DC chargers on the Lithium algorithm. Even then, I have two complete spare alternators packed away as this could run them too hard...

Please do not take offence, but this installation on your Yacht is way over my head and I am in the Business. I could do the job, but I would NOT DO IT as I could not troubleshoot it even if I was on board. I don't know if any of my Technicians to pinpoint the potential troubles and fix it. Look, Brilliant, but this is my impression: We would not even do it for a Client.. NO WAY... a nightmare to maintain as there is just too much involved and it staggers my imagination on what spares to take and how to trouble shoot it..

Good Luck, PLEASE DON'T TAKE OFFENCE.. but I thought my honest answer might help others.. And again WOW...

Kind regards from Australia, Skipper/Owner/Maintenance Engineer on Saba#11 SERENITY...

PureEnergy, I am exhausted after reading and trying to understand the extremes of what he has done and all the Electronics involved.. and compiling my answer... I will get to you in a day or two...
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Old 22-12-2020, 14:55   #150
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Re: Improvements to the Saba 50

No worries, no offense taken,

My build might be a bit more complex than most, but the design is based on redundancy and I find it very simple to manage. Rather than carry spares for everything, I have separated the critical DC systems and built in failovers (in some cases, 3 layers deep.)

Thus far it has performed wonderfully. It might appear a bit complex, but with a basic internet connection (which we have 3 levels including satellite) I can review and manage all systems from anywhere on the planet.

Thanks for taking the time to review and comment.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw
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