Why is my boat pointing into the wind?

[Montanan]

Primer on how the rudder works.

https://www.marineinsight.com/naval-...-ship-turning/

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by GreaseWspoon

what is a foresail tack? there was no damage to keel ,im not sure if any previous owner changed the prop but i didnt, the rudder post was not bent.

moving the mast step foreward.... plllleeeez noooo!

The foresail is the jib or genoa at the front.

The tack is the foot of the sail that attaches at the bow.

Moving the foresail tack forward moves the center of effort of the foresail forward and thus tends to make the boat head downwind / offwind because of the added lever arm of the effort of that sail relative to the boats center of lateral resistance.

Flattening the foresail will also tend to increase the effort induced by the foresail and thus again shifts the center of effort forward on the vessel which counters the weather helm induced by the mainsail. The mainsails center of effort is typically behind [towards the aft] of the center of lateral resistance of the vessel. The vessels center of effort is determined by the relative centers of effort of all the sails working together. When you reef the mainsail or loosen it so as to spill the air one is reducing the effort of the mainsail and that in effect moves the boats center of effort forward because you are lessening the center of effort of the mainsail which mainsails center of effort is aft of the center of lateral resistance.

It is all about balance above the water line and below the water line. If the boat is correctly balanced in its trim it will tend to sail a true and steady course without someone tending to the helm.

An old joke: It is hard to sail when you are clewless. Reference picture of sail parts.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by GreaseWspoon

The bottom is clean

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by GreaseWspoon

Here are the rudder dimensions

Those dimensions seem rather small, especially as to only having a 30 inch length for your 27 foot, 6,400 pound dry weight boat. That rudder is not a high aspect ratio, 30 / 16 = 1.875

Definitely obtain guidance from Cascade Yachts on the rudder design, they may provide other suggestions as to what is happening and remedies, or could tell you if the boat just is inherently tender as to being of weather helm.

I own three sailboats, my middle sized trailerable lake boat is a very basic 25 foot MacGregor, day cruiser, of only 2,100 pound displacement. The MacGregor has a bit longer length of waterline than the Cascade 27 but somewhat shorter LOA, yet rather comparable overall, reference drawing. By comparison, its below the water length of high aspect ratio elliptical rudder is 42 inches long by 11 inches wide. It looks almost exactly like the one depicted in Sponberg's article. Aspect ratio = 3.81 I'm not saying that this type of rudder is more appropriate than your's, but it is definitely very different and will generate more lift per drag. When the heavy steel, swing keel is lowered the lateral center of resistance moves forward and the center of gravity is also shifted forward and of course the steel keel placed down provides for far greater lever arm of stability and less heeling; all three attributes aiding in diminishing the vessel's weather helm, up to the point of overpowering with the mainsail.

Both the keel and the rudder swing upward such that the boat drafts only 1 foot, 10 inches, makes it easy to beach. With the keel down it drafts 5.67 feet. The swing keel is also of high aspect ratio / high lift configuration.

If I fail to reef or ease the main and overpower the boat it will head up into weather and I can instantly feel the point when the rudder reaches too high of an angle of attack as I try to steer hard over so as to bring it back to leeward, off the wind, and then it begins to quickly stall and it cavitates / vibrates due to the induced turbulence and yields less lift abruptly. It will head harshly into the wind, luff and calm until if falls back off the wind and repeats that cycle until I trim the sails appropriately which I should have done before the situation happens.

All the best.

[Mike Banks]

I think your rudder blade is turning on the shaft, or the shaft is turning in the quadrant.
.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Montanan

This article by Eric Sponberg is excellent primer on keel and rudder foil design.

https://www.ericwsponberg.com/wp-con...der-design.pdf

That's good.


I also like Frank Bethwaite. https://www.amazon.com/High-Performa.../dp/0713667044


It's a lot like trimming sails, except you can't see it. As a result, design and construction shortcuts are too common. If it does not turn out that something is seriously broken, and the prop is stock, then it's down to sail trim (which it sounds like you know) and marginal rudder design.

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by Mike Banks

I think your rudder blade is turning on the shaft, or the shaft is turning in the quadrant.
.

Actually, the rudder blade turning on the shaft is not unlikely. Depends how the rudder was built.

[MartinR]

Some builders just filled the rudder around the shaft with foam, without any protruding stainless steel bits. So only the foam transmits the power from shaft to blade. Over time it weakens.

But - if the zero position on the wheel does not change over time, this behaviour can not be attributed to any rudder problem, except design.

[Jim Cate]

Guys, pay attention! The OP has already posted that he has disassembled the rudder blade and the metal lattice is still firmly attached to the post and the core is ok... so, no, it wasn't the blade shifting on the post.

Jim

[01kiwijohn]

Have you checked to see if the welded framework, I side the rudder is sound?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by 01kiwijohn

Have you checked to see if the welded framework, I side the rudder is sound?

See post above yours and several more upthread.

Jim

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by GreaseWspoon

the quadrant is easily seen from a hatch in the cockpit and it is obvious from looking at it what position the rudder is in. i have watched it durring these round ups and i can have the rudder position far over to port and still be turning starboard into the wind

OK, this is the statement I'd like to know more about. Are you certain that the quadrant is not slipping on the rudder post? In other words, how do you know the rudder position by looking down on the rudder post? Does your rudder post have a visible key that fits into a key way (slot) on the quadrant that you can see as you look down on it? If it has a key and the key is sheared off then it can slip. If the rudder post has a key way in it that you can see then you can tell the rudder angle as along as the rudder post is intact inside the rudder itself which I believe Jim has cleared up for us. It is possible the key way in the rudder post is hidden by the quadrant. Photos looking down through your hatch would be nice.
Now if it is that the rudder, post and quadrant and cables are all working fine, then if all else you have stated before is true, I am truly at a loss. To me it doesn't make sense for a rudder, even a poorly designed one or one that is not fair, to just stall out randomly. I must be missing something.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by MartinR

Some builders just filled the rudder around the shaft with foam, without any protruding stainless steel bits. So only the foam transmits the power from shaft to blade. Over time it weakens.

I did not know that. All I can say is, wow. Of all places to save a dime...

[Snore]

I am very confused. You stated that

Originally Posted by GreaseWspoon

To give you an idea of my experience I have my 50 ton master captains license and sailing endorsement , 5 years captain of a 40 foot sailin catamaran taking tourist out 3 charters a day 5+ days a weekand have owned 5 different monohulls around 27 feet in the last 10 years . I have never experienced this issue on any other sailboat I have been on. Not trying to be weird defensive braggy guy or anything ,just trying to get some more helpful responses

.

Yet you have asked what CLR is and “what is a foresail tack”.

Given that you are sure the rudder is moving in response to helm inputs and that the rudder is not moving on the post- it is either a blown out main, or too much sail for conditions (boat wants to sail flat).

[roland stockham]

I have seen boats 'lock' onto a heading or tack themselves even when not overpowered if the mast position is wrong. Pretty scary! Most likely too little mast rake making the sail plan nuteral. When sailing at a good speed with moderate heel let go the wheel the boat should turn steadly to the wind and stop in irons. if shee tays on course you need more mast rake to increase wheather helm. If she bears off the wind you have too much rake. You should ideally need about 5deg of weather helm to hold a course when sailing at good speed to windward. More courses unnecessary drag, less reduces lift from the keel and is unsafe as the boat can get out of control. Remember a sailboat has t wing, a sail flying above in air and a keel flying below in water, balencing these forces is what makes the boat go to windward and why a raft can't!