Why is my boat pointing into the wind?

[GreaseWspoon]

[QUOTE=GrowleyMonster;2895438]Is there any way that you can shift the foresail tack forward a few inches? Also try flattening the jib a bit more. Sometimes easing the main or taking a reef just isn't enough.



If you have a deck stepped mast, you could try moving the step forward a half a foot or so. Not too much... then you have the opposite problem which can cause even more problems. You WANT a hard gust to make her round up a bit. Be sure and move the compression post along with the mast, if you move it. Moving the mast step is kind of a last resort.


Any damage to the keel? Change of prop? Is the rudder post bent?



what is a foresail tack? there was no damage to keel ,im not sure if any previous owner changed the prop but i didnt, the rudder post was not bent.

moving the mast step foreward.... plllleeeez noooo!

[GreaseWspoon]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

OK wild one! But if it was a slipping quadrant or the like, when the roundup was over the wheel wouldn't be in the normal position for straight ahead, would it? Seems like he would have noticed something like that.

Jim

the quadrant is easily seen from a hatch in the cockpit and it is obvious from looking at it what position the rudder is in. i have watched it durring these round ups and i can have the rudder position far over to port and still be turning starboard into the wind

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by GreaseWspoon

What is CLR?

Very good question, sorry for using the acronym

In the context of our use and this forum it has nothing to due with Calcium / Lime / Rust remover.



Center of lateral resistance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center...ral_resistance

You can kind of think of its as the pivot point of your vessel.

Your issue is the boat is heading up into the wind, weather helm. But it is uncertain what the cause or causes are. It could be with the airfoils, i.e., sail trim, or the hydrofoils, the keel, hull and rudder, or a combination of both. If your rudder trim is incorrect or slips then that could also be a cause.

So the issue(s) are either above the water or below the water but you are having a force rotate the boat undesirably.

[GreaseWspoon]

Originally Posted by Snore

Did I miss something? Why are you guys suggesting re-engineering the CLR by altering the rudder? Do we have reason to believe the rudder is moving on the rudder post?

I would start with eliminating one system at a time. First, since this is a wheel boat, find and expose the emergency tiller connection. Use this as a de facto rudder position indicator. Next sail the boat and when she insists on rounding up see if the e-tiller connection moves when you turn the wheel. This will eliminate the steering system.

Next, begin another test. At the dock, when the topping lift is tight, measure the distance from boom to the deck. Remeasure when close hauled and the boat is rounding up. While I do not believe you can get enough mast shift to alter steeering that much, measure again when the helm goes unresponsive.

Next, (my bet) begin another test. When she rounds up BLOW the main sheet. Do not adjust, just let it run free. My bet is a blown out main, but I could be wrong.

Finally, make a conscious effort to sail the boat flat- think seasick prone charter guests. If it does not happen when the boat is sailed flat, then when she heels- the rudder does not provide enough LR and the CLR moves forward.

If you blow the main and she still rounds up- then start checking if the rudder is moving on the post, or some other serious mechanical issue.

what is CLR? have no reason to believe the rudder was moving on the post all the welds on the skeleton are intact. the boat is not set up for an emergency tiller(absolutely adding a fitting for one on top of the post with the new rudder) but the quadrant is easy to see from a hatch in the cockpit and rudder position is obvious. I have gone thru steering system everything is functioning properly and in good shape.

the test you are describing with measuring form the boom to the deck will obviously have to wait until i build a new rudder.

I have set the main sheet completely free and still roundup

the succeful tacks i have had have defenitely been sailed as flat as possible and alittle off the wind. what is LR?

[GreaseWspoon]

Originally Posted by Hanksy

Could this boat have hydraulic steering? I've had a hyraulic leak that made the steering wander intermittently. It would be fine u til some air managed to find it's way into the hoses. Often the system would burp itself and be fine for a while and then would start to wander again.

not hydrolic steering

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by GreaseWspoon

the quadrant is easily seen from a hatch in the cockpit and it is obvious from looking at it what position the rudder is in. i have watched it durring these round ups and i can have the rudder position far over to port and still be turning starboard into the wind

If you turn your rudder hard over, that induces an angle of attack that can readily cause its flow to stall out and lose all or most of its lift and thus it will have no or only modest turning force. If you are feeling the need to turn the rudder significantly to attempt to keep the boat running on its tack,in order to not turn up into the wind then almost certainly the sail trim is incorrect, and / or the rudder is improper in design or size.

[GreaseWspoon]

Originally Posted by MartinR

OK, we go by questions, there is not enough info.

1) What kind of steering, chain and wire, hydraulic, rack and pinion?

2) Is rudder original?

3) Is there good feedback in the wheel?

4) How about fouling) This can mess up basically everything.

1)wheel steering with cable and quadrant

2)I am not sure if the rudder is original or not

3)Yes wheel works great in every situation other then whats described

4) what do you mean?

[GreaseWspoon]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Clearly the rudder is loosing attached flow. Some have suggested overload resulting from poor trim. I don't know. But I have had problems with ventilation with high speed rudders (over 14 knots), and the description is similar.


The prop is rather close to the rudder and probably disturbs the flow over the upper half of the rudder. It sounds like there is also damamge, though It sounded like this was happening before.


* A little deeper might help, if it did not overload the shaft.
* Is the prop oversized or has it been relocated? Perhaps it is disrupting the flow. I've know folks to put a big prop on for better low speed maneuvering, and then have problems steering under sail.

* Is the foil smooth and a draft-forward design (rudders must operate at a much higher angle of attack than the keel, for example. I once had a rudder that was all but ruined by a rough finish; just fairing and smoothing it made a HUGE difference.

Prop is not oversized and has not been relocated

I dont know anything about foils or rudder design do you have some sort of online material you could recomend for me to learn about that aspect?

[Montanan]

Useful discussion of center of effort and center of lateral resistance.

http://http://www.jordanyachts.com/4023

It also discusses how you can change the degree of lee or weather helm by shifting weight in the boat for and aft, an attribute a previous poster mentioned. Trim includes displacement balancing for and aft, as well as to port and starboard, e.g, the amount and position of "rail meat".

[GreaseWspoon]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

Yes, many of the Cascades were kit boats but the rudder was not ordinarily designed by the individual finisher, but was fabricated by Yacht Constructors / Cascade Yachts. BTW the company is still in business (now in Warrenton, OR) so original specifications and many replacement parts are still available. Cascade Yachts

wow i have no idea why I havnt seen there website, I was under the impression they went out of buisness in 2007. I just tried calling them to get original rudder dimentions, hopefully hear back from them soon. thank you so much!

[Montanan]

Fouling is the gunk that grows on the hull and it appendages [keel, rudder and propeller].

Taken to the extreme, REALLY EXTREME it looks like this.

If you have gunk on the rudder in particular it can lose it smooth flow and thus will not act like a lifting surface and will not contribute adequately to the boats lateral resistance [LR] and the boats Center of Lateral Resistance will in effect move forward due to the loss of the lateral resistance of the aft mounted rudder, and the boat will then tend to head to wind just as if the boats Center of Effort of the sails shifted aft.

The propeller could also be contributing to turbulence of the water flow over the rudder [just as the gunk on the rudder would induce turbulent flow on its surface] and the rudder's performance would be degraded by such turbulence.
's

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by GreaseWspoon

Prop is not oversized and has not been relocated

I dont know anything about foils or rudder design do you have some sort of online material you could reccomend for me to learn about that aspect?

This article by Eric Sponberg is excellent primer on keel and rudder foil design.

https://www.ericwsponberg.com/wp-con...der-design.pdf

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by GreaseWspoon

What is CLR?

Center of Lateral Resistance.of the hull to sideways forces of wind. Determined by hull shape viewed from abeam.

[pdxsailordiver]

Cascades are tender.
Make sure you don’t have to much foresail. I had a 130 % dropped down to a 110% . Sails much flatter, as the main is huge and the prime horse power.
Make sure lower aft shrouds are not to tight. As it is deck stepped mast, tight lower aft shrouds make the top of mast go forward.
You should be able to find a set of plans.
Russell who now owns Cascade has all the molds and plans.
Where are you located??

[GreaseWspoon]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Fouling is the gunk that grows on the hull and it appendages [keel, rudder and propeller].

Taken to the extreme, REALLY EXTREME it looks like this.

If you have gunk on the rudder in particular it can lose it smooth flow and thus will not act like a lifting surface and will not contribute adequately to the boats lateral resistance [LR] and the boats Center of Lateral Resistance will in effect move forward due to the loss of the lateral resistance of the aft mounted rudder, and the boat will then tend to head to wind just as if the boats Center of Effort of the sails shifted aft.

The propeller could also be contributing to turbulence of the water flow over the rudder [just as the gunk on the rudder would induce turbulent flow on its surface] and the rudder's performance would be degraded by such turbulence.
's

The bottom is clean