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scoobert · 21-12-2012, 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by hpeer

Here's a great site about home building a 65' mono. Not as big a job as a 65' cat, but will give you an idea of what is involved.

Fascinating stuff, great videos

http://www.submarineboat.com/sailboat.htm

i just watched every video.
not sure i would do origami.
the pieces i will be working with should be smaller
and i think it will be easier to wrap steel over a frame then a frame into steel.
i also cannot figure out why the didnt spray the steel with etch primer...

oh.. and making his own prop? WTH?

**hpeer** · 24-12-2012, 15:23

Yes, smaller, but
TWICE as many and
they MUST be IDENTICAL so
MORE care and skill required.

Yeah, and he is an Oracle DB administrator. So this is what he does to relax and/or for a challenge.

Gotta love IT.

SabreKai · 25-12-2012, 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoobert

i just watched every video.
and i think it will be easier to wrap steel over a frame then a frame into steel.

I'm not too sure about that. Looking at the way my frames have been double in about 2 dozens spots to even come close to touching the skin, I have to wonder. One does assume that they built the frames correctly, and set them up properly. Still, I have gaps of up to half the frame depth that they had to double. I'm putting it off to really shoddy builders. Rank amateurs if you ask me.

A monocoque hull like the Origami boats relies primarily on the skin for its strength, and the frames are secondary. If the skins bend fairly and evenly, you can get a sweet hull, with minimal internal structures. I think the Origami method is a great advance over multi-chine, giving a better form, though not as nice as a rolled plate hull.

As for working with those heavy pieces, anchors in the ground and a half a dozen come-alongs will move just about anything you care to mention. I spent a few years in heavy construction and am truly amazed at what a skilled person can do with simple things like levers, wedges and come-alongs.

scoobert · 25-12-2012, 17:51

i was thinking of building a simple cheep overhead lift. just some wood, maybe make 3 of them, so i can lift the parts into place, and unload my trailer. i am sure the electric ones are nicer, but i will just use the harbor freight ones.

scoobert · 26-12-2012, 17:13

i was reading something and i came up with a question.

Quote:

Copper Nickel

Another material which should be considered along with steel, stainless, and aluminum is Copper Nickel. One can ignore paint altogether with CuNi, inside, outside, top and bottom. Copper Nickel acts as its own natural antifouling. In fact, bare Copper Nickel plate performs better than antifouling paint! Being a mirror-smooth surface, any minor fouling is very easily removed. Copper Nickel is very easy to fabricate, being both easy to cut and to weld using the MIG process.
Besides not having to paint CuNi and its natural resistance to fouling, CuNi is also easy to cut and weld, it has relatively great heat conductivity, it is extremely ductile, and it is therefore very favorable with regard to distortion while welding.
There are two alloys of Copper Nickel which are the most common: 70/30 CuNi, and 90/10 CuNi. The numbers represent the relative amounts of Copper and Nickel in the alloy. Having a greater amount of Nickel, 70/30 CuNi is the stronger of the two and also the more expensive of the two.
In the US as of February 2007, 90/10 CuNi was priced around USD $8.50 per pound, and 70/30 CuNi around USD $13.00 per pound, both based on a minimum order of greater than 15,000 pounds. In other words, roughly ten to fifteen times the cost of the same structure in steel. I have not investigated current (2012) prices for CuNi, but we can be certain they are higher (i.e. the value of the dollar less) thus the ratio of costs vs. steel much higher.
The main issues with CuNi are not only those of cost, but also of strength. For example, the ultimate strength of 90/10 Cu Ni is about one third less than that of mild steel, and the yield strength about half that of mild steel. In practice, this means that a hull built of Cu Ni will need to make use of heavier scantlings. CuNi, being slightly heavier than steel per cubic foot, the CuNi hull structure will end up being slightly heavier than an equivalent steel hull structure.
In most materials, we will usually "design to yield." This means that the ultimate failure strength of a material is more or less ignored, and the yield strength is instead used as the guide for determining scantlings. For example, if we were to desire a 90/10 CuNi structure having the same yield strength as there would be with a similar steel structure, then we might be tempted to actually double the scantlings. Naturally this would result in quite a huge weight penalty, BUT....
In practice, a CuNi structure need not be taken to this extreme. Using the ABS rules to calculate the scantlings, an all 90/10 Cu Ni structure will have around 25% more weight than a similar structure in steel. It is best to use the same plate thickness as with steel, and compensate for the lower yield strength by spacing the longitudinals more closely, say using approximately half the stringer spacing prescribed for the same thickness of mild steel plating.
It is unlikely that one would choose CuNi for the internal framing, primarily because of its relatively low strength and the relatively much larger scantlings and weight that would result. In other words, there is no reason not to make use of CuNi for the hull skin only in order to take full advantage of its benefits, but to use a stronger and less expensive material for all the internal framing.
What is the best choice for the internal framing...? Probably type 316-L Stainless. As long as the various attributes of stainless are kept in mind, this is a combination having considerable merit. Here is why...

Stainless can be readily welded.
One can easily make a weld between stainless and Cu Ni.
Scantlings of stainless internal framing would not need to be increased, in fact they would be less than those required for mild steel.
The weight of stainless internal framing would therefore be roughly 10% less than with mild steel, or approximately equal to the weight of a Corten steel internal structure.
316-L Stainless costs (February 2007) around USD $4.50 per pound based on a minimum order of 10,000 pounds. Therefore the cost of stainless is roughly half that of 90/10 Cu Ni, and about one third the cost of 70/30 Cu Ni... Combined with there being much lighter scantlings, the overall cost factor would be reduced considerably.

With this strategy the weight can be kept to roughly the same as would be the case for a mild steel structure. And to further reduce costs, NC plasma cutting or water jet cutting can be used for all plates and internal structure.
Are there still more options to reduce costs...?
Fiberglass...! Compared to the weight and cost of an all CuNi / Stainless structure, both cost and weight can be reduced by using fiberglass for the deck and house structures, or possibly just for the house structures. A cold moulded wooden deck and / or superstructure is also a possibility.
Even with GRP or composite wood for the house structures, it probably would be most advantageous to plate the deck with Cu Ni. In so doing, one could then use CuNi for all the various deck fittings: stanchions, cleats, bitts, etc. Pipe fittings are readily available in either alloy of CuNi, so this would be a natural. The resulting integral strength and lack of maintenance would be an outstanding plus.
While the expense of Copper Nickel may seem completely crazy to some, given a bit of extra room in the budget and the will to be completely free from ALL requirements for painting, this is the bee's knees....! The savings realized by not having to paint the entire vessel inside and out - EVER- will go quite a long way toward easing the cost differential.
Per existing research on a number of commercial vessels, their operators have shown a very favorable economic benefit over the life of a Copper Nickel vessel. This is due to there being a much longer vessel life; far less cost for dry docking; zero painting costs; no maintenance; no corrosion; few if any repairs; etc.

could i bond this to the bottom of the steel in such a way that no anti-fouling paint would ever be needed? just a thin layer of this? i am not even sure if anyone can answer this question.

i have also considered applying rubber to the wet side of the boat between the steel and the bottom paint.

just working on solutions to rust before it happens.
i cant start building until march at least...

Bash · 26-12-2012, 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoobert

i could not imagine the frustration of sitting down to dinner, and having a motor yacht go by, rocking your boat 20-40 degrees.

40 degrees? Upon what planet does this happen?

**hpeer** · 26-12-2012, 18:53

Ok, ya got me thinking, anyone ever paint their steel hull with 5200?

scoobert · 27-12-2012, 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bash

40 degrees? Upon what planet does this happen?

i see racers way beyond that under power.
my own monohull has been beyond 45 in beam seas.

**Seaworthy Lass** · 27-12-2012, 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoobert

my own monohull has been beyond 45 in beam seas.

Overcanvassed!

scoobert · 27-12-2012, 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Overcanvassed!

its a planing powerboat.

**Seaworthy Lass** · 27-12-2012, 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoobert

its a planing powerboat.

Undercanvassed then

.

scoobert · 27-12-2012, 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Undercanvassed then

.

lol, it has a Bimini... is that enough or should i put the camper top on?

Matt sachs · 27-12-2012, 07:18

[QUOTE=SabreKai;1114652]I'm not too sure about that. Looking at the way my frames have been double in about 2 dozens spots to even come close to touching the skin, I have to wonder. One does assume that they built the frames correctly, and set them up properly. Still, I have gaps of up to half the frame depth that they had to double. I'm putting it off to really shoddy builders. Rank amateurs if you ask me.

I found a few gaps between the hull and the frame on mine also, but mostly on the top chine, and only in a few places. I added steel to the frame to ensure a solid contact between the frame and hull every foot or so. The hull is made of thicker material than the framing so I guess the hull holds the frame in place. LOL.