Seasickness, Fear & anxiety

[SuW]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

While I agree that seasickness isn't an "it's all in your head" sort of thing; other than your vestibular system (inner ear) is literally located "in your head", I do firmly believe the management of seasickness can largely be accomplished as a "mental thing." Your second paragraph, I quoted, endorses that concept.

I wasn't referring to you but jmschmidt; who said only 1 in 100,000 people had physical reasons for seasickness.

I explained my experience, and my notion as to a possible cause.

[girdasso]

My recommendation is stugeron which worked for me. Available in UK. When I started racing offshore 50 years ago had a problem with seasickness which is partly caused by psychological and confidence issues. Take stugeron before bad weather hits and as directed and after a while you will get over it.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by SuW

I wasn't referring to you but jmschmidt; who said only 1 in 100,000 people had physical reasons for seasickness.

I explained my experience, and my notion as to a possible cause.

I know you weren't referring to me - but I'm allowed to weigh in, in an open discussion, aren't I?
While it was inelegant, what he essentially said was that most seasickness can be controlled without drugs, something I agree with, and what many respondents, yourself included, tend to corroborate, whether they realize it or not.
Taking the helm, staring at the horizon, wristbands or stuffing an earplug in one ear are all tricks to keep your stomach out of your head. Many people will tell you those are effective strategies, but you know full well that they have no physiological effect on the body. I don't know if it's 1 in 100K, but it is a very small proportion of the population that actually have a physiological disorder of the inner ear, that requires medication.
That's not to say that drugs don't have their place - everybody has a limit to the amount of weird motion they can stand; if the seas get rough enough, there's no amount of mind-over-matter that will help. But for regular everyday, run-of-the-mill sailing, most people should be able to develop effective coping strategies to quell the queasiness.

[SuW]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I know you weren't referring to me - but I'm allowed to weigh in, in an open discussion, aren't I?

You come over as cross. Apologies if you didn't intend that, but I didn't say or imply that you couldn't contribute; while you appear to be saying that people shouldn't "need" to use drugs for this issue.

Apparently you don't. Good for you.

Originally Posted by Lodesman

While it was inelegant, what he essentially said was that most seasickness can be controlled without drugs, something I agree with, and what many respondents, yourself included, tend to corroborate, whether they realize it or not.

Not "inelegant", inaccurate. Full stop.

...and if you read what I said, I use dramamine and/or cinnarizine as well as all the other things. And I still get sick, but I can still work on board.

Sailing downwind is better. Ymmv.

[Lindsaymcm]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Without fail, every single person who has been seasick on my boat gets over it very quickly when I make them steer. Holding the wheel, being in control of the boat, and watching the water/waves as a reference to steer seems to bring senses back together.

Agreed! My wife discovered years ago that if she drives the car through the winding mountain roads she doesn’t suffer from car sickness. Applies equally on the boat in rough seas.

[ColIn Ferguson]

Hi,


Sea sickness has been well researched and it is a physical condition. It is not related to mental fortitude. If you get it , you get it. Almost everyone can get it under the right circumstances but some are more prone than others, and the phenomenon of developing sea legs also definitely occurs.


I would not recommend using Carvedilol or other beta blockers. these are serious mdications with a profound physiological effect. I have witnessed a guy collapse after using them for exam anxiety and then walking up a couple of flights of stairs. They work by reducing the work the heart does and lower your blood pressure and pulse rate. Not what you need when you need to exercise and move about well. They can also produce a whole range of side effects including acute mental derangement.



Personally I find the the standard advice all works to some extent, but I still get it. The most powerful precipitating factor for me is cold, if I get cold in a seaway I am sick. I have been completely incapacitated in the UK on several occasions but I have never been sick in the Med, even in severe conditions.

Hangover is also a precipitator.


Scoplomine patches are the best medication for me. They work really well and best if you put them on 24 hours in advance of going to sea. So if I know it is going to be rough in the UK I put one on in advance, or just don't go. That is where being skipper helps.



Try them before you need them in anger just to make sure they have no side effects.


Chhers




Colin Ferguson

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by SuW

You come over as cross. Apologies if you didn't intend that, but I didn't say or imply that you couldn't contribute; while you appear to be saying that people shouldn't "need" to use drugs for this issue.

Not cross. I think that most people should be able to control seasickness most of the time, without drugs. Not everyone. And I did say that everyone has a threshold where drugs might be the only effective control.

Originally Posted by SuW

Not "inelegant", inaccurate. Full stop.

...and if you read what I said, I use dramamine and/or cinnarizine as well as all the other things. And I still get sick, but I can still work on board.

Sailing downwind is better. Ymmv.

Tomato, tomato. Whatever. Perhaps you're the 1 in 100K. Given that you say you have BPPV, perhaps you do have an inner ear disorder. You also listed a bunch of non-drug coping strategies, that you apparently use with some success - do you not see where some people could use those strategies to effect, without using the drugs?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by ColIn Ferguson

Sea sickness has been well researched and it is a physical condition. It is not related to mental fortitude. If you get it , you get it. Almost everyone can get it under the right circumstances but some are more prone than others, and the phenomenon of developing sea legs also definitely occurs.

We all have a vestibular system, that works the same way. An individual's sensitivity to it is unique, but ultimately we all share similarities in how we compensate for the sensory imbalance.
It isn't "if you get it"; you were right in saying that everyone will get it, given the right circumstances. The difference is in how people cope with the dissonance between the inner ear and the other senses.
You've acknowledge that "sea legs" are a thing. So how does the "physical condition" change? I'll put to you, that there is no change to the physical, but it is the brain that adapts to those inputs and accepts the motion as the new normal.

[NY2TLV]

I have the solution to your seasickness. As surprising as my solution is, it just works 100%.
I read almost all the comments here. Many offer drogues of all kinds, but I do not offer any medicine.

Sorry for my distorted English that is not my first language, but I had to share my solution here.

I have had a Hunter 34 since 1989 and over the years I have gotten rid of seasickness in a way that surprised me and surprises everyone who goes out sailing with me.

Years ago I sailed with the ferry to Alice Island and I remember that even when the ferry was tied to the pier and people were getting on it, I was already feeling seasick without us even starting to sail.
Already as a child, I vomited while taking a long bus ride.
This is how I developed anxiety about sailing, almost as you describe.

Years later, I spent time at Club Med in Turkey and was offered to learn to sail a small sailboat. In the sailboat, I felt good and decided that when I returned I would buy myself a small boat.
My first boat was 23 feet long and, most of the time, I felt OK on it, but after a year I switched to my Hunter 34, and on it, I felt nauseous, sometimes even in a calm sea.

In Israel, it is customary to crack and eat sunflower seeds, and sometimes I brought such seeds (as part of refreshments and cakes for the guests).
I also loved cracking sunflower seeds, and I immediately noticed that when I crack and swallow seeds, seasickness doesn’t even show up in me.

Since then, whenever one of the guests warns me that he feels nauseous on a boat, I assure him that on my boat he will feel great, provided he will eat the sunflower seeds that I bring with me on every voyage.

By the way, I have since discovered that even if you swallow small bread crumbs, non-stop, slowly, nausea will not appear. worth trying.

There is only one condition: one should start swallowing the seeds before nausea appears. Once nausea appears, nothing can be swallowed.

Seasickness is the only disease you do not want to recover from, you just want to die quietly.

[NaClyDog]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I know you weren't referring to me - but I'm allowed to weigh in, in an open discussion, aren't I?
While it was inelegant, what he essentially said was that most seasickness can be controlled without drugs, something I agree with, and what many respondents, yourself included, tend to corroborate, whether they realize it or not.
Taking the helm, staring at the horizon, wristbands or stuffing an earplug in one ear are all tricks to keep your stomach out of your head. Many people will tell you those are effective strategies, but you know full well that they have no physiological effect on the body. I don't know if it's 1 in 100K, but it is a very small proportion of the population that actually have a physiological disorder of the inner ear, that requires medication.
That's not to say that drugs don't have their place - everybody has a limit to the amount of weird motion they can stand; if the seas get rough enough, there's no amount of mind-over-matter that will help. But for regular everyday, run-of-the-mill sailing, most people should be able to develop effective coping strategies to quell the queasiness.

I'd love to see the scientific research paper that supports this.


K? Thanks.


Projecting your own perceived superiority for dealing with something that a huge number of people cannot control isn't cool. "Man up" and "mind over matter" is absolutely NOT helpful.



P.S. Don't mix up facts with anecdotal evidence.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

I'd love to see the scientific research paper that supports this.


K? Thanks.


Projecting your own perceived superiority for dealing with something that a huge number of people cannot control isn't cool. "Man up" and "mind over matter" is absolutely NOT helpful.



P.S. Don't mix up facts with anecdotal evidence.

Don't be a knob. I've never stated any position of superiority, or said anything to the effect of "man up." So reel in your neck.

How about you produce a scientific research paper that supports your view, whatever that is?

This whole thread is about anecdotal evidence. The "facts" are presented by the various respondents in their own words, based on their own experiences.
Almost everyone who has reported suffering from seasickness has stated that taking the helm, or looking at the horizon, or other such activities, relieve their symptoms - how's that for a fact?

Over 40 years of boating experience, and a career in the Navy - I have literally spent years at sea. I've observed hundreds, if not thousands, of people and how they "deal" with seasickness; and I know how I cope - note I said "cope" - I am not immune to seasickness; I learned to suppress the queasiness.

IMO, an attitude that you are helpless against mal de mer, or that positivity can't help in managing seasickness, is absolutely NOT helpful.

If you want to argue against my point of view, I welcome that; but if you're just going to continue hurling personal insults at me, I'd rather you just piss off.

[NaClyDog]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Don't be a knob. I've never stated any position of superiority, or said anything to the effect of "man up." So reel in your neck.

How about you produce a scientific research paper that supports your view, whatever that is?

This whole thread is about anecdotal evidence. The "facts" are presented by the various respondents in their own words, based on their own experiences.
Almost everyone who has reported suffering from seasickness has stated that taking the helm, or looking at the horizon, or other such activities, relieve their symptoms - how's that for a fact?

Over 40 years of boating experience, and a career in the Navy - I have literally spent years at sea. I've observed hundreds, if not thousands, of people and how they "deal" with seasickness; and I know how I cope - note I said "cope" - I am not immune to seasickness; I learned to suppress the queasiness.

IMO, an attitude that you are helpless against mal de mer, or that positivity can't help in managing seasickness, is absolutely NOT helpful.

If you want to argue against my point of view, I welcome that; but if you're just going to continue hurling personal insults at me, I'd rather you just piss off.

My view is that everyone is different and what works for one person may or may not work for someone else.


Is this good enough? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6241144/


I'd love to read your peer reviewed scientific study.


ETA: I'll re-iterate that telling people you don't agree with the treatment they choose is not helpful.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

My view is that everyone is different and what works for one person may or may not work for someone else.

And my view is that most people (I said "most", not "all") can find a degree of relief, up to and including the elimination of seasickness in most circumstances through non-pharmacological methods. What works for any one person may not work for another.

Is this good enough? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6241144/


I'd love to read your peer reviewed scientific study.

LOL. Did you even read it? Within the abstract:

Note "drugs" are only one method; the other two are the ones I'm talking about.

ETA: I'll re-iterate that telling people you don't agree with the treatment they choose is not helpful.

Show me once where I said I don't agree with the treatment anyone chooses. Do you note any irony in your saying that you don't agree with the treatment I choose?

[lestersails]

Always interesting to read these threads. A few thoughts.
Is it a physical (vestibular) problem or is it anxiety?
Yes.
Good luck trying to do the chicken and egg thing with this one. Like many maladies, it is a mix of both for most and the mix is probably different for each person. Anecdotes are entertaining, and if one matches your experience, perhaps that is helpful to you. It won't match a lot of people's experience. The whole "is it mental or is it physical?" shtick is just silly - behavior is neurochemistry and neurophysiology, generally poorly understood at a fundamental level, which is an invitation for hand waving, pontificating, and witchcraft. But there is no rational dichotomization of mental vs physical. They are inseparable and thoughtful approaches to such maladies always integrate the two.
"Is it anxiety or is it vestibular?" is just a more specific version of that larger point.
Beta blockers (e.g., carvedilol) are not anxiolytics. I don't think there are all that many anxiolytics - mostly they are sedatives, which is not quite the same thing. That they are sedatives makes them dicey for people with serious duties aboard. Fine for passengers. Carvedilol is a non-selective beta blocker, meaning it blocks both Beta1 and Beta2 receptors and it blocks alpha receptors. All part of the adrenergic (adrenaline) pathways. The casual term for this is that it is a "dirty" drug - it does several things and it is not all that clear how that mix of primary effects leads to downstream effects.
Beta blockers commonly have fatigue as a side effect, which can be mistaken for anxiolytic effect. But more importantly, the cardiovascular and adrenergic effects can have a powerful effect on anxiety reactions. By blunting the rise in heart rate, pulse pressure, and diaphoresis (sweating), they can have the wonderful effect of breaking the anxiety cycle. A little anxiety > increased heart rate & sweating > a physical perception of anxiety > raises one's anxiety further. If you sense your body having physical signs of anxiety you become more fearful. I used to use propranolol for stage fright, as noted by others above. I not infrequently had to speak in front of audiences as large as 5,000-10,000 people. Worked great because I was so self conscious to break out in a sweat, I would get panicky. I was embarrassed about it and it would make it worse. A few years of using propranolol, then I didn't need it all. Broke the cycle. Even though I was not treating anxiety, I was able to break out of a pattern of anxiety. Mind and body are one.
One minor amendment of the warning about carvedilol and diabetes - it does not cause or worsen diabetes. What it does is blunt the symptoms of hypoglycemia (low blood sugar - over-treatment of diabetes). This is actually worse than making diabetes worse. A diabetic can sense mild hypoglycemia and nibble or drink some juice - problem typically solved. If you don't sense that your glucose is a little low, it can go really low, which can cause a full blown seizure or worse. Not a good problem asea.
With any of these more serious remedies I strongly second the recommendation from others to do them with a doctor's advice, taking into account your overall medical situation. These and other drugs can be the perfect solution for some people, but a perfect storm for others.
Finally - try them out on dry land first. If you are going to have an adverse reaction you want it on the hard. Significant side effects are said to occur in 10% of users of carvedilol. A trial run on land should make you confident to use it asea. One of the classics is transderm scopolamine-induced psychiatric reactions. Most prevalent in older men (none of them on CF, I am sure). It can be pretty bad and difficult to manage. It is not common and not a reason to not use it, but just put one on on land for a few days and see how it goes when you have ready access to 911.

[NaClyDog]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Show me once where I said I don't agree with the treatment anyone chooses. Do you note any irony in your saying that you don't agree with the treatment I choose?

I'll just leave this here and stop responding; "what he essentially said was that most seasickness can be controlled without drugs, something I agree with".