Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-10-2019, 07:21   #31
Registered User
 
skipgundlach's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Currently on the boat, somewhere on the ocean, living the dream
Boat: Morgan 461 S/Y Flying Pig
Posts: 2,210
Send a message via Skype™ to skipgundlach
Re: On the hook without an inverter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveSadler View Post
I'm surprised you don't have 12v frig. Get the water cooled frig so it's silent. I have to turn ours off at night it's fan is so loud! I leave the freezer on as it's water cooled. With solar panels and a few batteries, we have more than enough.
Boooooo

Hissssss

Our replacement from our Frigoboat (actually silent unless you put your ear to the compressor) had to have water added. Details in other CF threads, from 2013/onward

It's the bane of our existence afloat. If it's not disabled due to some electrical nuisance in the box which requires virtual disassembly of the ER to reach, it's clogged up with junk from the water. The only time that has NOT been the case is in gin-clear water such as the Bahamas. On a Mooring in Vero Beach, it's a weekly exercise to completely disassemble the intake portion in order to either de-mud (hallelujah - just a PITA to have to do anything at all) to de-barnacle (grrrr) the entirety, including beyond the pump (which we do with Barnacle Buster).

DO NOT USE WATER COOLING UNLESS IT'S FROM A FW TANK AND RECYCLED back into it. Ask most AC users, as well, but refrigeration seems somehow to be a special case for us.

More comment to your original separately...
__________________
Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig, KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
skipgundlach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2019, 07:29   #32
Registered User
 
skipgundlach's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Currently on the boat, somewhere on the ocean, living the dream
Boat: Morgan 461 S/Y Flying Pig
Posts: 2,210
Send a message via Skype™ to skipgundlach
Re: On the hook without an inverter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdagioBoulder View Post
Thanks for all the ideas! Our plan at this point is to hire someone to help us by doing an energy audit, load calculations, and to design a system that will include solar, larger house battery bank, probably a new & more efficient refrigerator, and??? Where there's a will there's a way.
I suggest Mike Giannetti, in Vero, lives aboard in the marina here. A contractor to Hartge Yacht Yard.

hyymike@aol.com. He can do from the audit to the end result but will do only what you need/don't want to do yourself.

As to new and more efficient refrig, there are many threads here on how to achieve that; ours was to saw out the old one and use 6" worth of extruded polystyrene, air, convection and radiation barriers, and double gaskets on reefer and freezer doors. Further to the comments about the water cooling, our Frigoboat keel cooler BD50 system was able, effortlessly (well, at half or less the amps consumed, anyway), to get 15 degrees F colder than our new SeaFrost BD80 air and water cooled system. If it weren't that we built the top over the largest available evaporator at the time (the properly bent evap would not go through the freezer door), I'd have gone back with Frigoboat. The keel cooler worked a treat, even out of the water (not recommended but it did).
__________________
Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig, KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
skipgundlach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2019, 08:18   #33
Registered User
 
OS2Dude's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Atlanta, GA
Boat: Catalina 30
Posts: 519
Images: 5
Re: On the hook without an inverter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipgundlach View Post
DO NOT USE WATER COOLING UNLESS IT'S FROM A FW TANK AND RECYCLED back into it. Ask most AC users, as well, but refrigeration seems somehow to be a special case for us..
You CAN'T recirculate cooling water unless you have a way to remove the heat from it faster than it is gained. I have read about a system that uses a heat exchanger mounted to the exterior of the hull on the keel stub, but it was very expensive and quite large.

Both types should be about the same in noise levels, since they still have compressors and evaporators. It is solely a difference in how the heat from the compressor is removed. Air cooled blows air over the heat exchanger to carry it away while water cooled uses a pump to run water thru the heat exchanger to do the same thing. Water's benefit is the heated water can be dumped over the side, while air cooled has to be vented to the outside air or else it will heat up the cabin.

Make sure your equipment is mounted with something to stop the vibrations from getting to the hull or else the whole boat becomes a giant sounding board. Don't tighten the mounting bolts so much that they compress any shock absorbing material into a solid dense mass, defeating its purpose. Lastly add some SOUND insulation. Heat insulation is not necessarily a good sound insulator.
OS2Dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2019, 08:59   #34
Registered User
 
skipgundlach's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Currently on the boat, somewhere on the ocean, living the dream
Boat: Morgan 461 S/Y Flying Pig
Posts: 2,210
Send a message via Skype™ to skipgundlach
Re: On the hook without an inverter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OS2Dude View Post
You CAN'T recirculate cooling water unless you have a way to remove the heat from it faster than it is gained. I have read about a system that uses a heat exchanger mounted to the exterior of the hull on the keel stub, but it was very expensive and quite large.

Both types should be about the same in noise levels, since they still have compressors and evaporators. It is solely a difference in how the heat from the compressor is removed. Air cooled blows air over the heat exchanger to carry it away while water cooled uses a pump to run water thru the heat exchanger to do the same thing. Water's benefit is the heated water can be dumped over the side, while air cooled has to be vented to the outside air or else it will heat up the cabin.

Make sure your equipment is mounted with something to stop the vibrations from getting to the hull or else the whole boat becomes a giant sounding board. Don't tighten the mounting bolts so much that they compress any shock absorbing material into a solid dense mass, defeating its purpose. Lastly add some SOUND insulation. Heat insulation is not necessarily a good sound insulator.
There are a few who'd disagree:
Project Planning Help : Great-Water, Marine Refrigeration
If the SP keel cooler does suit your application then a conventional water-cooled system with a water pump is a good alternative. Many customers choose to re-circulate fresh water out of a tank, thru the system and back into the tank. This greatly reduces the need to service the strainer and pump, is safer and works when the boat is hauled out on the hard too! Either way, fresh water or more conventional raw water, the water cooled compressors have great capacity and will be more efficient when ambient temperatures climb into the 90's.

And here on CF:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...e-172975.html#
]
and

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...k-48765.html#:
"I'll chip in as someone who actually does run fresh water from the tank to the compressor to cool it. I have two systems, one an Adler-Barbour Supercold combined air and water cool to an evaporator box, and a home-made water-cooled system to a holding plate. In the winter I just run the AB and in the summer (Mexico) I run both, and both are plumbed to draw and return cooling water from an 80 gallon steel tank, which is under a salon seat and next to the hull.
Theoretically, the heat "mined" from the ice box should be removed from the cabin altogether, but dumping it into the water tank has had no noticeable effect on the water temp in the tank or the air temp in the cabin. Equilibrium with its surroundings seems easy to achieve; the fresh water has never seemed warm (warmer than ambient air temperature). I have run these with as little as 10 gallons in the tank.
An argument can be made that corrosion in the water-cooled condenser could corrupt the fresh water. This is certainly possible but apparently not very likely. The fresh water doesn't have the caustic properties of sea water, and I have been using this arrangement for about eight years with no problem. (One non-discussed benefit is that I can run it in the yard as well.) Someday it might happen; I assume I would taste it in the water, but in any event before I drank too much of it I would notice that my compressor(s) weren't working, and investigate why.
Science alert! An AB Supercold unit is designed to remove up to 650 Btu per hour. That amount of heat if entirely put into the water would raise 650 pounds of water by one degree F. A 55 gallon tank has (55 gallons)*(8.3 pounds/gallon) = 456 pounds of water; a 'fridge running full out will raise the water temp by 650 Btu per hour/456 pounds of water = approx. 1.4 degrees F per hour. Your water tank if warmer than its surroundings is shedding heat as well. Science alert over.
Now to roll up the shirt sleeves to arm-waive a bit - how long would an unisulated hot water tank stay hotter than its surroundings? Common-sense answer - not very long.
FWIW, I use March magnetic pumps and a sea-strainer to circulate and clean the water. A poly. water filter would probably be better, and someday I will be motivated enough to change filter housings...

Michael"

Or not...
__________________
Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig, KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
skipgundlach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2019, 09:08   #35
Registered User
 
OS2Dude's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Atlanta, GA
Boat: Catalina 30
Posts: 519
Images: 5
Re: On the hook without an inverter?

Again, the heat gained from a small refrigerator is small when dumped back to an 80 gallon non-insulated tank. If the tank was supper insulated so no heat could escape and the refrigerator was badly insulated so it ran constantly, eventually the water would get hot enough that it would not accept anymore heat from the fridge. Since neither condition is likely to be true, and the amount of water being used is large, the heat gained IS being removed by radiation. So NO, they are NOT disagreeing with my statement.
OS2Dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2019, 09:23   #36
Registered User
 
skipgundlach's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Currently on the boat, somewhere on the ocean, living the dream
Boat: Morgan 461 S/Y Flying Pig
Posts: 2,210
Send a message via Skype™ to skipgundlach
Re: On the hook without an inverter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OS2Dude View Post
Again, the heat gained from a small refrigerator is small when dumped back to an 80 gallon non-insulated tank. If the tank was supper insulated so no heat could escape and the refrigerator was badly insulated so it ran constantly, eventually the water would get hot enough that it would not accept anymore heat from the fridge. Since neither condition is likely to be true, and the amount of water being used is large, the heat gained IS being removed by radiation. So NO, they are NOT disagreeing with my statement.
My apologies. I thought you were saying recirculating water in a FW tank would not get the job done. It seemed to be in contention with my suggestion, but I'm clueless, let alone old
__________________
Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig, KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
skipgundlach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2019, 11:04   #37
Registered User
 
pcmm's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Whitby, Canada
Boat: Morgan Out Island 41
Posts: 1,733
Images: 2
Re: On the hook without an inverter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdagioBoulder View Post
We are about to spend the upcoming season on our new, to us, boat in Florida at Ft. Pierce City Marina getting used to the life. We intend to cruise the Florida coast and also take a trip to the Bahamas. Newbie question: Is it possible to spend some time overnight on the hook without an inverter and without running the gennie at night? How do you do it? Store refrigerated items in the Yeti, etc? How do you handle other electrical needs?
Looks like you have a larger powerboat. As a sailor your question makes us chuckle a little bit. Until last year I never sailed or anchored or cruised with either an inverter or a generator. Power boats from my unerstanding aren't really setup ( by design) to be energy conservers. They generally (big generalization here) take the approach of you want comforts we'll provide them and just throw in a genny, etc to keep them going. Cruising sailors on the other hand have the opposite (traditionally) approach of how little power do I need to get done what I want. 12v based refigeration with holding plates are one example. We spend alot of time trying to squeeze down the last Ah.

first thing to do is get an understanding of where your power is ued and why. Running an AC fridge ( usually the biggest user) convert to DC and a reasonably size battery bank and charging infrastructure.

best to to an energy audit and see how much Ah you need in an average day.
pcmm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2019, 11:54   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Whitianga, New Zealand
Boat: Cal 2-46
Posts: 193
Re: On the hook without an inverter?

Boat size and space dependent.
We are 14 metres (that is 46 feet for those from USA)
We have solar (300watt) and wind (up to 35 amps depending on battery state and wind speed) and battery bank 500a/hrs

We use multiple accessories such as toaster. Heat gun. Hairdryer. Drills. Sanders. Bread maker.
Our fridge and freezer are mainly engine compressor but also battery occasionally when stuck on the hook.
We live aboard for long periods (6-7 months) with no battery issues.
Jimmyhenry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2019, 04:39   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 116
Re: On the hook without an inverter?

JUNE - JULY - AUGUST - SEPT -

Hurricane season - Hot humid Fla ,

NO A/C on hook - FT PIERCE - see how long that lasts

You will love your dockside a/c
Open cabin door , hatches , bugs , YUMMY

I just removed my gas generator that was 250 lbs of rusted
non working steel .
I have a large power inverter , coffee ,tv , fan. charging phones , computers
does a fine job. . Refrigerator works 12 volt , Never tired micro wave
Stove & a/c requires electric but we never stay on hook

At dockside a/c gets plugged in immediately
Sitting on deck 100 degrees , going into a 72 degree cabin
is great .

Good luck
Al B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-10-2019, 07:10   #40
Registered User

Join Date: May 2018
Location: Rocky River, Ohio
Boat: Endeavour 42
Posts: 20
Re: On the hook without an inverter?

There are several large Power Boats that are "Anchorage Friendly". I am a sailor, and cruise with several large trawlers and a 52 foot Tiara, all are set up with large Battery Banks, and Inverters, none find it necessary to run the at night unless it is very hot and humid, in those conditions, I run mine also.

Refrigerators are either DC or AC/DC, stoves are not needed, we use grills, coffee pots and microwaves run off the inverters.

You can set you Jefferson up to do what you want to do, it just takes planning.

If you like your morning coffee, and maybe a warm muffin, then you may want to set up an inverter.
eemahoney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-10-2019, 07:50   #41
Moderator Emeritus
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Jacksonville/ out cruising
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 31,351
On the hook without an inverter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coastalexplorer View Post
During the years I have been involved with reading Cruisers forum...it has appeared to me that the greater number of Members' are owners or charterers of predominately some type of Sailing vessel?


Did anyone else google search what sort of Vessel that AdagioBolder has listed as his new acquisition?



a 2005 Jefferson Rivanna 50 SE

is a virtual floating house with a walk in engine room two monstrous diesel engines and a gen-set that would not even fit in the majority of our boats?


So perhaps it it not surprising that all the practical advice being offered here by true sailors is so very irrelevant to the question?






Thatís the bottom line, this is a Marina boat, itís best use is to find a nice Marina to park it in and leave it there. Many, many of them are used as Winter homes for people who live up North.
For the occasional night out, you run the generator, it is in fact what most power boats do. When we had our Sportfishermen, the generator was started before we left the dock, and ran until after we returned. We had three batteries, two 8Dís to start the engines, and a regular battery to start the generator.
Turn the ACís off and within about 2 hours, you would cook as there was no ventilation.
It was a boat that just wasnít suitable for cruising, unless you define cruising as a short run to the Bahamas to a Marina there.

Many, many people cruise that way. Met a lady at the pool the other day, she was saying that she just couldnít sleep at anchor. I smiled and told her that she would become used to to, no problem after she got some experience.
She was incensed, her comment was, well we did the entire loop and only anchored twice, I really donít see why anyone would want to live like that.

I was dumbstruck as she was obviously trying to act superior to me, alluding of course that people anchored because they couldnít afford Marinaís.

I didnít respond, but should have said well I understand that not everyone can afford to equip their boat with the extensive systems required to be comfortable without a Marina plug and arenít smart enough to manage those systems, for those people a Marina is the best choice.
I will next time though.
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
inverter

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A/C Solar Generator (without Inverter) Capt. lulz Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 0 25-08-2011 17:57
Running a Laptop Without an Inverter Weyalan Marine Electronics 57 08-05-2011 08:28
True (Pure) Sine Inverter vs Modified Sine Inverter Alecadi Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 19 05-05-2011 06:19
Separate Charger and Inverter or Charger-Inverter ? SvenG Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 14 15-10-2010 17:14
Calculating Amps Drawn Before Inverter and After Inverter ? impi Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 23 26-09-2010 22:24

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:38.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.