Long distance sailing in small yachts

[Cruiser2B]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I might suggest for the purposes of this thread, a list of boats, say 30’ and under that make reliable long distance cruisers. There is the Flicka probably at the low end and then maybe something like a Rawson 30 at the high end? (Although I’d have more fun in an Olson 30)

Don,
Here is a good small boat list to start with

https://atomvoyages.com/planning/good-old-boats-list.html

Ive had an Alberg 30 and moved up to a westsail 32...both great boats...but my westsail is 100% bigger than the Alberg and only 2 ft(on deck) longer

[Michaele]

Originally Posted by Tricolor

For me the perfect size, type is still a 30-32ft longkeeler if possible rigged as a ketch, 9-10 tons. For two people this size is perfect as of livability and space for storage and water. From costs perspective these kind of yachts bring long distance offshore sailing in reach of a lot more people. But first people need to believe again that it's possible.

I agree with all of the above except I think it is more the person rather than the boat... And their age and financial situation...

I circumnavigated in an Angus Primrose Moody 36 and that was much more comfortable than the Elizabethan 31 I had before.

Just sold my Westerly Ocean 43 and we did some 4-5 day passages in her and found her sea kindly and very comfortable but the financial investment was significant.

I am now back to single handing and looking for a Nic or Contessa 32 or Rival , Halmatic or Elizabethen 31 all of which will look after me and make my sailing long or short distance much more economical..

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

The Morris Linda & Annie are capable small cruisers. Pacific Seacraft & Cape Dory also built several small cruisers that will get the job done. However, my favorite small cruisers are the BC Cutter & the Fisher 25.

Hah! That's a cute little pilothouse sloop! I like it! Might not go so well to windward, but wow I love a pilothouse.

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster

Hah! That's a cute little pilothouse sloop! I like it! Might not go so well to windward, but wow I love a pilothouse.

It goes great to windward as long as you run the iron genny!

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

A question for you Jim, your boat is larger and heavier than mine, does it sail with six knot winds? We can go well (not fast) with five to eight knots of steady wind, does your larger, heavier boat move in winds like that? I have no first hand experience with a large sail boat like yours, and popular rumor says larger boats need ten plus knots just to get going, is this true in your experience? You said “at times” in your response above, does that mean occasionally?

Fair winds,

Jeff

I found a good speed comparison for the Bristol 29.9 (which is quite light for a Bristol and it doesn't have a full keel) to a longer full keel boat with lots of wetted surface and quite heavy with about the same PHRF

It a Cape Dory 33 with a PHRF of 186. Displacement 13,300lbs. SA/Disp: 15.42

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/cape-dory-33

Bristol 29.9 displacement 8,650. SA/Disp: 14.89

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/bristol-299

For us full keel sailors on small boat like the Bristol 27, the Cape Dory 33 would be a nice step up and the added bit of speed, weight, and draft would be nice also.

Bristol 27 PHRF 240

Albin Vega 27 PHRF 246

Contessa 26 PHRF 252

[Cpt Mark]

I had a 40' full keel crab crusher that could sail along in 5 knots with a huge asymmetrical in front. I'd use that until around 10 knots and switch to jib

[joseph221980]

There's no way I can afford a 100k boat. I'm done dreaming. My plans are to buy some 30ish and hope it has a good haul. I'll put and outboard motor on if need so.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Cpt Mark

I had a 40' full keel crab crusher that could sail along in 5 knots with a huge asymmetrical in front. I'd use that until around 10 knots and switch to jib

10kt boat speed or wind speed? I assume wind.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I found a good speed comparison for the Bristol 29.9 (which is quite light for a Bristol and it doesn't have a full keel) to a longer full keel boat with lots of wetted surface and quite heavy with about the same PHRF



It a Cape Dory 33 with a PHRF of 186. Displacement 13,300lbs. SA/Disp: 15.42



https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/cape-dory-33



Bristol 29.9 displacement 8,650. SA/Disp: 14.89



https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/bristol-299



For us full keel sailors on small boat like the Bristol 27, the Cape Dory 33 would be a nice step up and the added bit of speed, weight, and draft would be nice also.



Bristol 27 PHRF 240



Albin Vega 27 PHRF 246



Contessa 26 PHRF 252

PHRF numbers are nice but what does that translate into in nm/d?

PHRF 243 is equivalent to 143.3nm/d with racing effort applied to sailing the boat. Cruising it’s going to be more like 118nm/d.

240–>144.0nm/d
246–>142.6
252–>141.2
186–>152.8

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Adelie

PHRF numbers are nice but what does that translate into in nm/d?

PHRF 243 is equivalent to 143.3nm/d with racing effort applied to sailing the boat. Cruising it’s going to be more like 118nm/d.

240–>144.0nm/d
246–>142.6
252–>141.2
186–>152.8

Try 90 to 100nm averages on a good day..

[Pegu Club]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I hope that Thomm doesn't think this to be a "rumor"... just what we normally achieve.

Six knots true, with wind forward of the beam up to close hauled we will do between 4-5 knots at ~36 deg apparent and 6 knots at ~60 deg apparent. This sort of performance with a clean bottom and tanks near empty. With full tanks (an extra 2500 lbs or so) some degradation of speed. If we took out the mass of all our worldly possessions she would do better. The addition of a code zero type sail would improve these numbers, but we don't have such a sail now.

Downwind performance, where the apparent wind is reduced by boat speed, isn't as good of course. In open waters, we will "tack" downwind trying to keep boat speed up. If we feel like flying a kite, she'll do pretty well at around 130 deg apparent, otherwise we'll pole out the genoa to windward, add the Solent jib to leeward and the main to leeward and get around 3 knots at near DDW.

for reference, our LWL is 44'8" and lightship displacement a bit under 10 tonnes. SA to D lightship is around 19.5 and D to L is around 115. Mast height is around 65 feet and draft is 7'2". Ballast is 4 tonnes, well down in the fin keel, but not a bulb type... she will sit stably upon her keel.

The "at times" means that when there is significant wind shear, a taller mast will be a big advantage.

There are indeed plenty of bigger cruising boats that do not sail well in light airs. They include boats with full keels (more wetted area for a given LWL), small rigs and great displacement (worse SA to D) and short waterlines (lower hull speed), all of which conspire to degrade performance. Their proponents claim more comfort at sea and greater safety. These claims are often disputed here on CF, and I won't get drawn into such discussions.

Jim

Thanks for that information, it does give a clearer picture than the “ rumors “

Fair winds,

Jeff

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Adelie

PHRF numbers are nice but what does that translate into in nm/d?

PHRF 243 is equivalent to 143.3nm/d with racing effort applied to sailing the boat. Cruising it’s going to be more like 118nm/d.

240–>144.0nm/d
246–>142.6
252–>141.2
186–>152.8

Yeah I was giving the lighter weight Bristol some good news, but that Cape Dory 33 full keel boat would totally leave the Bristol 29.9 behind on an ocean cruise just somewhat off the wind especially in big seas due to it's extra weight, keel depth, and sail area

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

Thanks for that information, it does give a clearer picture than the “ rumors “

Fair winds,

Jeff

Mixing in all that apparent wind data etc doesn't change the fact that larger boats (even the heavier full keel boats with lots of wetted surface) do in fact sail faster than the smaller ones except maybe for beach cats

I won this regatta on my Nacra 17 and rounded ahead of the faster boats at the first mark after 10 miles of this race boat for boat against much faster rated boats.

I really disliked the PHRF racing style of racing after having raced one design for a few years so I figured out a legal plan to get ahead of the faster rated boats. (at least for the first 10 miles)

I added a jib and took the mod penalty. It also helped that I had flatter sails (including the spinnaker) than the competition and the wind was close and rotating forward

A downwind spinnaker start helped which isn't that easy since I was running three sails and sailing singlehanded

Ft Walton Beach Race Last Weekend - Aquarius Sail Owners


Here's what the start looks like......consider a downwind start and the timing it would take against boats that are larger with crew. I happened to nail the start though and somehow had the spinnaker up 30 seconds prior. I had the lead after the first 100 yards

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swvtXAPIX4U

[thomm225]

Here's another good comparison.

The Contessa 32 has a phrf of 180 where the Bristol 29.9 has one of 183, but you wouldn't want to sail a Bristol 29.9 around Cape Horn as it sits very high in the water and is quite light

PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

Some call the Contessa 32 a submarine with sails (lots of wetted surface) which doesn't sound that great unless the winds are super strong then it becomes a good thing

Contessa 32 Bal/disp:47.37 Boats built 700
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/contessa-32

Bristol 29.9 Bal/disp: 41.62 Boat built 216
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/bristol-299

To avoid confusion though, these are two of my favorite boats. Only thing I dislike about the Bristol 29.9 is that I haven't seen on with a tiller

[thomm225]

In the end though, I'm thinking the Bristol 35.5 fixed keel might be the best "small" boat for cruising. PHRF 150 Disp 15,000/ Ballast 6,500 SA/Disp 15.89

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/bristol-355