Long distance sailing in small yachts

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Singularity

With respect, I think that the logic of bigger begets bigger is routinely greatly exaggerated in comparing a used 35' to 45' boat. I bought a 45' dock queen with the explicit plan of replacing all the dated subsystems. Having bought/installed most of the replacement components already I can't see how buying a 35' boat would have allowed me to buy smaller or fewer components. I can see how putting 35# into a 35# bag is harder than putting 35# into a 45# bag.

35' and 45' shared/same components for a cruising couple:
+/- fresh water pump
bilge pumps / switches
+/- macerator pump
alternator
alternator regulator
house bank
starter battery
inverter / charger
solar energy system
galley hardware/components
head #1 hardware/components
+/- VHF / instruments / radar / plotter
engine/components (generally speaking)
+/- watermaker
water heater
dinghy/outboard

45' increased costs:
-second head ($1k to replace all the components DIY)
-tank sizes routinely few to several hundred dollars if/when replaced
-more paint come painting time
-more line/rigging come line/rigging replacement time
-25-30%? more expensive sails come replacement time
-dodger/bimini come replacement time
-increased fees in a slip/on the hard/hauling out
+/- HVAC
-maybe 2-3 extra breakers in the distribution panel
-more cushions

Assuming not in a slip/on the hard, the cost difference per year for the extra marginal costs for the larger boat is what...$1k to $3k per year? I have little doubt that a 45' DIY owner comes out ahead of the 35' owner who chooses to contract out work and/or isn't a good scrounger.

If owners of 45' boats tend to overload the boats with fru-fru then the problem is with the owner, not the boat length. All else equal, a lightly loaded 45' boat ought to be an all-around better performer than a 35' carrying the same working load as the 45' boat, no?

A 45 foot boot is about twice the weight of a 35 foot boat. Aside from electronics, everything else is either bigger and/or required in more quantity:

Rigging, sheets, sailing hardware, sails, antifoul, engine and transmission components, wiring and plumbing runs and components, battery capacity, pumps, cleats, mooring lines, winches, anchors and tackle and so on and so on.

Whilst each component might not seem that much more expensive, collectively it adds up.

[Don C L]

I might suggest for the purposes of this thread, a list of boats, say 30’ and under that make reliable long distance cruisers. There is the Flicka probably at the low end and then maybe something like a Rawson 30 at the high end? (Although I’d have more fun in an Olson 30)

[Reefmagnet]

The Albin Vega 27 has the reputation, but to look at one you'd have to wonder why. They do sail well though. I think anything with narrowish beam and modified fin keel or longer makes a good candidate.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

A question for you Jim, your boat is larger and heavier than mine, does it sail with six knot winds? We can go well (not fast) with five to eight knots of steady wind, does your larger, heavier boat move in winds like that? I have no first hand experience with a large sail boat like yours, and popular rumor says larger boats need ten plus knots just to get going, is this true in your experience? You said “at times” in your response above, does that mean occasionally?

Fair winds,

Jeff

I hope that Thomm doesn't think this to be a "rumor"... just what we normally achieve.

Six knots true, with wind forward of the beam up to close hauled we will do between 4-5 knots at ~36 deg apparent and 6 knots at ~60 deg apparent. This sort of performance with a clean bottom and tanks near empty. With full tanks (an extra 2500 lbs or so) some degradation of speed. If we took out the mass of all our worldly possessions she would do better. The addition of a code zero type sail would improve these numbers, but we don't have such a sail now.

Downwind performance, where the apparent wind is reduced by boat speed, isn't as good of course. In open waters, we will "tack" downwind trying to keep boat speed up. If we feel like flying a kite, she'll do pretty well at around 130 deg apparent, otherwise we'll pole out the genoa to windward, add the Solent jib to leeward and the main to leeward and get around 3 knots at near DDW.

for reference, our LWL is 44'8" and lightship displacement a bit under 10 tonnes. SA to D lightship is around 19.5 and D to L is around 115. Mast height is around 65 feet and draft is 7'2". Ballast is 4 tonnes, well down in the fin keel, but not a bulb type... she will sit stably upon her keel.

The "at times" means that when there is significant wind shear, a taller mast will be a big advantage.

There are indeed plenty of bigger cruising boats that do not sail well in light airs. They include boats with full keels (more wetted area for a given LWL), small rigs and great displacement (worse SA to D) and short waterlines (lower hull speed), all of which conspire to degrade performance. Their proponents claim more comfort at sea and greater safety. These claims are often disputed here on CF, and I won't get drawn into such discussions.

Jim

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

The Albin Vega 27 has the reputation, but to look at one you'd have to wonder why. They do sail well though. I think anything with narrowish beam and modified fin keel or longer makes a good candidate.

Yeah, I too have wondered about the Vega, it's smaller than my boat and I consider mine small! (not that I'm complaining!) The Nor'Sea 27 also is a popular choice. To make that kind of cruising work (IMO) you really need to have all small stuff (of course,) and you really have to have a neat and handy place for everything, and everything in its place, all the time, like a block puzzle or a Russian nesting doll. AND some things are going to have to serve two or three functions. The trick, to my mind, is to have everything stowed so that you still have a salon, head and berths you can easily move around in and feel comfortable in (and stuff isn't going to be thrown around in!) and not have stuff strapped out on deck or house. That last part may be unavoidable though if you need more fuel than you have room for.

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Yeah, I too have wondered about the Vega, it's smaller than my boat and I consider mine small! (not that I'm complaining!) The Nor'Sea 27 also is a popular choice. To make that kind of cruising work (IMO) you really need to have all small stuff (of course,) and you really have to have a neat and handy place for everything, and everything in its place, all the time, like a block puzzle or a Russian nesting doll. AND some things are going to have to serve two or three functions. The trick, to my mind, is to have everything stowed so that you still have a salon, head and berths you can easily move around in and feel comfortable in (and stuff isn't going to be thrown around in!) and not have stuff strapped out on deck or house. That last part may be unavoidable though if you need more fuel than you have room for.

The Vega sacrifices a quarter berth for additional cockpit lockers. For a small boat it has impressive storage. It's not unknown for some to have the engine removed and outboard fitted to allow the engine space to become additional storage. As with just about any small boat, fuel and water storage is somewhat limited.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

A 45 foot boot is about twice the weight of a 35 foot boat. Aside from electronics, everything else is either bigger and/or required in more quantity:

Rigging, sheets, sailing hardware, sails, antifoul, engine and transmission components, wiring and plumbing runs and components, battery capacity, pumps, cleats, mooring lines, winches, anchors and tackle and so on and so on.

Whilst each component might not seem that much more expensive, collectively it adds up.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

A 45 foot boot is about twice the weight of a 35 foot boat. Aside from electronics, everything else is either bigger and/or required in more quantity:

Rigging, sheets, sailing hardware, sails, antifoul, engine and transmission components, wiring and plumbing runs and components, battery capacity, pumps, cleats, mooring lines, winches, anchors and tackle and so on and so on.

Whilst each component might not seem that much more expensive, collectively it adds up.

I suppose I'm not going to debate this, but people considering a 45' who read that they are much more expensive than a 35' should run the numbers for themselves. Clearly routine (once every several year) consumables of paint, lines, sails are larger (marginally more expensive), but most other non-consumables either don't get replaced or generally cost the same (or less, depending on the hardware involved) or are exactly the same between a 35' and 45' boat.

If the 45' owner wants to otherwise load the boat with more accoutrements (e.g. diesel generator, massive battery banks, new anchors/winches) that's a separate issue from boat length.

[cj88]

Just for something a little different, how about something like a J/30?

[Scout 30]

The Morris Linda & Annie are capable small cruisers. Pacific Seacraft & Cape Dory also built several small cruisers that will get the job done. However, my favorite small cruisers are the BC Cutter & the Fisher 25.

[thinwater]

I found I was finished cruising, so I downsized to something fun (24' tri).


I find day sailing in a cruising boat ridiculous, like taking an afternoon drive in a Winnebago. Smaller is more fun.

[picklesandjesse]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I find day sailing in a cruising boat ridiculous, like taking an afternoon drive in a Winnebago. Smaller is more fun.

100% correct here.

[syPhilos]

Haha, this topic reminds me of a story an acquaintance once told me.

Years & years ago, he sailed around the world with his wife and baby on their 32' boat. They still have that very same boat, but these days people on bigger (40' +) boats will give them funny looks if not outright warn them when they go out for a sail on a windy day.

They just smile and wave.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I hope that Thomm doesn't think this to be a "rumor"... just what we normally achieve. into such discussions.

Jim

The rumor I responded to was the one he mentioned about larger, heavier boats needing 10 knots of wind just to get going

I responded that larger boats are usually always faster than smaller boats.

Many somehow have this notion that smaller boats are fast but in most cases they are not. Not even close.

An Olson 30 with a good start in a buoy race might hold off a larger boat for a while but over time and distance the larger boat will be faster

It's all about proportion. The larger boat can be heavier but it will also have a longer water line, taller mast, and more sail area

The taller mast and increased sail area are a given basically but it's the LWL that's key

A nice deep keel helps also…..

[dcstrng]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I find day sailing in a cruising boat ridiculous, like taking an afternoon drive in a Winnebago. Smaller is more fun.

Hah… I like that.

When I had the Irwin Ketch, we used it a fair amount (much younger then, lots of friends who wanted weekend joy rides and willing to pull on this rope or that), but it was a chore much of the time and I assure you the maintenance was more reflective of its hefty displacement – was a better quality boat than its reputation, but no rationalization will convince me otherwise; been there, did that. Except for a few longer runs up and down the Bay, I don’t recall it being anywhere near as much pure fun as the B24 (slack-bilge and nearly 50% ballast, even in 30+kts of wind it sailed bigger than it was, bit wet from time to time but rode like the proverbial Cadillac ) you only realized how compact it was when down below – which helped to limit interlopers to mostly the Admiral or the grandson, seldom at the same time. I guess I like size of our ODay now okay, it’s a bit heftier than a lot of 30-foot fin-keelers these days, but it doesn’t have all the attributes you’d expect of a long-distance cruiser and compared to the long-keel B24 won’t hold a course unattended worth a hoot… good thing is the maintenance is closer to the B24 than 14-15 tons of Irwin, but the same temptation exists – to fill up all that extra space with gadgets I’ll never enjoy using… Probably shoulda kept the B24…