Long distance sailing in small yachts

[alctel]

The thing that struck me reading Tania Aebi's book 'Maiden Voyage' about her circumnavigating in the 80s was that almost all the boats she met were under 40', with about 1/3 to 1/2 under 30'.

I think the 'buy as small as you can live with' is very sensible.

[Don C L]

And these days bigger boats are easier to sail than back in the old(er) days. With roller furling on all sails, and motorized, and bow thrusters fairly common, and electric windlasses and better anchors, better engines (what ever happened to glow plugs?)... they all add up to the inclination to spring for a larger boat I think. That and those buying boats these days may tend to have a little more money???
But I digress...

[cj88]

Originally Posted by Don C L

And these days bigger boats are easier to sail than back in the old(er) days. With roller furling on all sails, and motorized, and bow thrusters fairly common, and electric windlasses and better anchors, better engines (what ever happened to glow plugs?)... they all add up to the inclination to spring for a larger boat I think. That and those buying boats these days may tend to have a little more money???
But I digress...

More systems to maintain, repair or replace. It's a juggle between what we each find comfortable, can afford and that will do what we want it to do. Simplicity is a wonderful thing but it's also good to have some things that make life just a little more enjoyable from time to time as well whatever they might be. I know I have been revising what I need and want so I can do the most with the least. Of course, when there's more than one of you involved it gets more complicated.

[picklesandjesse]

Originally Posted by cj88

Of course, when there's more than one of you involved it gets more complicated.

"You said a mouthful Bowdrie" ......Words from Louis L'Amour

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Don C L

And these days bigger boats are easier to sail than back in the old(er) days. With roller furling on all sails, and motorized, and bow thrusters fairly common, and electric windlasses and better anchors, better engines (what ever happened to glow plugs?)... they all add up to the inclination to spring for a larger boat I think. That and those buying boats these days may tend to have a little more money???
But I digress...

I think you’re exactly right on both trends. Technology and affluence have converged to increase the average LOA with each passing decade. I suspect it’s more the latter than the former, but the two seem to be pushing size larger. Probably the same reason average house sizes (in USA/Canada) have increased over the same period.

But this is exactly why I recommend getting the smallest boat you (and your crew) can live with. The natural tendency is to maximize size and comfort, but this can quickly become a trap for those not prepared for the longterm maintenance costs, let alone the immediate problems when technology suddenly fails.

BTW, we’ve had similar discussions many times here. A recent thread (maybe a year ago) explored actual data on increasing size. I recall learning that while LOA appears to be increasing in general, there were a few datasets of long-distance cruisers which indicated size had not increased that much over time.

These datasets looking at long distance or round-the-world cruisers showed median LOA have been remarkably stable at around 42 feet. And this went back into the 1970s for at least one dataset.

[Tricolor]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

.........there were a few datasets of long-distance cruisers which indicated size had not increased that much over time.

These datasets looking at long distance or round-the-world cruisers showed median LOA have been remarkably stable at around 42 feet. And this went back into the 1970s for at least one dataset.

I followed that one and its still difficult for me to understand, my personal experience is different. But I must be wrong.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Tricolor

I followed that one and its still difficult for me to understand, my personal experience is different. But I must be wrong.

That’s the power of large datasets. It often reveals how our personal experiences lead us to false conclusions.

BTW, I too was surprised with the analysis. But it’s also important to stress that these datasets were still relatively small, and fairly specific (west coast RTW, and a few long distance rallies). Still, they indicate a counter-intuitive answer to the common wisdom.

[Don C L]

Well, we need to distinguish those that are actively cruising around the world or long distances, compared to those doing something more local. I'm not surprised that the median would remain constant in both cases, since I imagine that more local, i.e. Caribbean or Med, cruising has some very large boats entering the mix while still having many smaller boats as well. But that is just my conjecture. And a lot of those more local 40-50' may be catamarans too.

[GrowleyMonster]

Buying the biggest boat you can afford often leaves you buying a boat that no, you cannot afford. It is very easy to underestimate expenses of a larger boat even if you are very familiar with smaller ones. But buying the smallest boat that will do what you want it to do is also IMHO a bad move. Yeah sometimes you find that you would be okay with an even smaller boat. But often after a few days at sea when things are not going so well, you will think how a slightly bigger boat would have been more comfortable or capable. Figure out where your sweet spot is, which usually takes a bit of experience to figure out, and stick to that range.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

That’s the power of large datasets. It often reveals how our personal experiences lead us to false conclusions.

BTW, I too was surprised with the analysis. But it’s also important to stress that these datasets were still relatively small, and fairly specific (west coast RTW, and a few long distance rallies). Still, they indicate a counter-intuitive answer to the common wisdom.

So when you did your analysis to make your "last boat" purchase did you look to see which length had the most circumnavigations...or which boat length do most old people end up with? In my case I looked at the latter. I was taught as a kid to look to see what older people do, and think long/hard why you're doing it differently. There's a lot to be said about the merits of buy once, cry once economics.

FWIW in the used market...for a boat that doesn't live in a slip...I don't see a sizeable cost difference in maintaining the systems of a 35' vs 45' boat. Most of the consumables are either exactly the same (galley, electronics, pumps, house bank, inverter, charging systems, often the engine) or are marginally different (paint/sails/lines, maybe an extra head). It's not like people are out replacing winches and spars on a regular basis. What does appear to be different is that the shorter boats end up riding deeper in the water (all else equal).

As always YMMV.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Singularity

So when you did your analysis to make your "last boat" purchase did you look to see which length had the most circumnavigations...or which boat length do most old people end up with? In my case I looked at the latter. I was taught as a kid to look to see what older people do, and think long/hard why you're doing it differently. There's a lot to be said about the merits of buy once, cry once economics.

No, that was not part of my approach. In fact, I didn’t do any “who uses what” analysis when settling on my current (last?) boat. What I did was spend considerable time sailing and cruising on a range of other boats. This allowed me (us) to learn what was important to us. IOW, we learned what we really needed.

The analysis I mention simply looked at datasets encompassing various collections of long-distance cruisers. I was surprised to see the stability of LOA over time in these groups. It seems clear that median boat size has increased over time. One only has to walk the docks to get a sense of that. But when looking specifically at long-distance cruising boats (at least in the referenced datasets), one finds the LOA hasn’t increased much since the 1970s.

Originally Posted by Singularity

FWIW in the used market...for a boat that doesn't live in a slip...I don't see a sizeable cost difference in maintaining the systems of a 35' vs 45' boat. Most of the consumables are either exactly the same (galley, electronics, pumps, house bank, inverter, charging systems, often the engine) or are marginally different (paint/sails/lines, maybe an extra head). It's not like people are out replacing winches and spars on a regular basis. What does appear to be different is that the shorter boats end up riding deeper in the water (all else equal).

It’s true some systems are LOA-nuetral; a pump is the same in a 35’ boat vs a 45’ boat. But I think what this misses is the fact that while the pump is the same, the number of pumps increase with size. So sure, the electrical system uses the same wire, batteries and charging systems, but all these things tend to increase in size with increasing LOA. The same applies to almost every system on a boat; increased size means larger and more of most items.

[Pegu Club]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

IMO there is no inherent light air capability endowed by being small. On the contrary, the considerably taller masts on larger boats will at times reach up to w here there is useful wind, whilst near the sea it is calm.

Light air performance is largely governed by SA to D ratio and SA to wetted area ratio, neither of which is enhanced by "smallness" per se.

Jim

A question for you Jim, your boat is larger and heavier than mine, does it sail with six knot winds? We can go well (not fast) with five to eight knots of steady wind, does your larger, heavier boat move in winds like that? I have no first hand experience with a large sail boat like yours, and popular rumor says larger boats need ten plus knots just to get going, is this true in your experience? You said “at times” in your response above, does that mean occasionally?

Fair winds,

Jeff

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

A question for you Jim, your boat is larger and heavier than mine, does it sail with six knot winds? We can go well (not fast) with five to eight knots of steady wind, does your larger, heavier boat move in winds like that? I have no first hand experience with a large sail boat like yours, and popular rumor says larger boats need ten plus knots just to get going, is this true in your experience? You said “at times” in your response above, does that mean occasionally?

Fair winds,

Jeff

Don't listen to rumors

The larger/longer the sailboat is the faster it will go usually even if it's a bit heavy due to the longer water line all else being similar to fit the size.

Check the PHRF ratings below for some examples. The lower the rating, the faster the boat

Fin keel boats of the same size will usually be faster than a full keel boat (on the race course) because they can point higher (better)

If you compare a boat of 40 plus feet to one of maybe 30 feet, the larger one will normally be much faster. (LWL)

There are exceptions though with some boats that are built strictly for racing like the Olson 30 with it's 102 PHRF. Contrast that with your Bristol 29.9 with it's PHRF of 183. That Olson is very light also with lots of sail area and a good long water line for a 30' boat.

Bristol 35.5 PHRF 150

Cal 40 PHRF 120

Bristol 44 PHRF 72

C&C 44 PHRF 60

Evelyn 42 PHRF 39 (built to race)

Olson 30
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/olson-30

Bristol 29.9
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/bristol-299

PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It’s true some systems are LOA-nuetral; a pump is the same in a 35’ boat vs a 45’ boat. But I think what this misses is the fact that while the pump is the same, the number of pumps increase with size. So sure, the electrical system uses the same wire, batteries and charging systems, but all these things tend to increase in size with increasing LOA. The same applies to almost every system on a boat; increased size means larger and more of most items.

With respect, I think that the logic of bigger begets bigger is routinely greatly exaggerated in comparing a used 35' to 45' boat. I bought a 45' dock queen with the explicit plan of replacing all the dated subsystems. Having bought/installed most of the replacement components already I can't see how buying a 35' boat would have allowed me to buy smaller or fewer components. I can see how putting 35# into a 35# bag is harder than putting 35# into a 45# bag.

35' and 45' shared/same components for a cruising couple:
+/- fresh water pump
bilge pumps / switches
+/- macerator pump
alternator
alternator regulator
house bank
starter battery
inverter / charger
solar energy system
galley hardware/components
head #1 hardware/components
+/- VHF / instruments / radar / plotter
engine/components (generally speaking)
+/- watermaker
water heater
dinghy/outboard

45' increased costs:
-second head ($1k to replace all the components DIY)
-tank sizes routinely few to several hundred dollars if/when replaced
-more paint come painting time
-more line/rigging come line/rigging replacement time
-25-30%? more expensive sails come replacement time
-dodger/bimini come replacement time
-increased fees in a slip/on the hard/hauling out
+/- HVAC
-maybe 2-3 extra breakers in the distribution panel
-more cushions

Assuming not in a slip/on the hard, the cost difference per year for the extra marginal costs for the larger boat is what...$1k to $3k per year? I have little doubt that a 45' DIY owner comes out ahead of the 35' owner who chooses to contract out work and/or isn't a good scrounger.

If owners of 45' boats tend to overload the boats with fru-fru then the problem is with the owner, not the boat length. All else equal, a lightly loaded 45' boat ought to be an all-around better performer than a 35' carrying the same working load as the 45' boat, no?

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

A question for you Jim, your boat is larger and heavier than mine, does it sail with six knot winds? We can go well (not fast) with five to eight knots of steady wind, does your larger, heavier boat move in winds like that? I have no first hand experience with a large sail boat like yours, and popular rumor says larger boats need ten plus knots just to get going, is this true in your experience? You said “at times” in your response above, does that mean occasionally?

Fair winds,

Jeff

Speaking of weight, I should have included this one.

The Navy 44-2

https://www.usna.edu/Sailing/lectures/navy44.php

I got to see one of them close up last year during the Annapolis to Bermuda Race. They were funded by Congress for the Naval Academy

This thing displaces 27,654lb/ballast 12,310 and goes thru the water very nicely helped out by a 34 ft. 7 ½ in LWL and a 7.3' keel. Sail area 956.37 . PHRF 78.

https://www.usna.edu/Sailing/documen...Book%20MK1.pdf

This boat was just getting ahead for an hour or so of an Xp 44 sailboat with a phrf rating of around 21. That didn't last long before the XP gained a better postiton.

I believe the XP44 finished first at Bermuda with the Navy 44 Tenacious coming in second but winning on PHRF handicap. Actual, the first 3 boats by handicap were Navy 44's

I spotted Tenacious coming down the bay at an angle (they were sailing not motoring which seems to be the norm for cruisers going against the wind) at around 0745 when I abandoned a crappy anchorage near Cape Charles and was crossing the bay headed west