Long distance sailing in small yachts

[Chotu]

I think my post was misinterpreted. You can’t take two different boats and compare them in this situation.

Take your favorite super sea worthy 24 foot boat and make 38ft. It is then more seaworthy. That can’t be debated.

[Don C L]

While I completely understand, I'll pose a silly question. What makes a boat seaworthy? Resistance to knock-down? Capsize? Speed of recovery? Ability to protect its human element? Or maybe better, ability to protect its human element in a calm, rested and lucid state? Even the last one depends on the sailors. I suspect Boatie is one of the lucky (and skilled and experienced!) few who can sleep in during a hurricane

[Don C L]

I ponder this from time to time since my boat is small and somewhat tender... and many would say it doesn't FEEL seaworthy, and they likely wouldn't FEEL safe on it. As a result I think a lot of opinions are based on feelings born of experience. I don't FEEL as safe on boats with spade rudders and bolt on keels because only one bad experience, but that memory colors my feelings about the boat I prefer. I concede that is somewhat irrational, but aren't we all considering trade-offs in our boat preferences? If you feel unsafe with a boat that rocks from side to side you probably won't choose a mono-hull, and you'll feel safer in a multi-hull. Now which boat or design is actually safer? As long the keel stays on and the water stays out of the inside, I'd posit that 90% of the boats out there could ride out a hurricane with no one on board!

[Chotu]

That I would agree with, Don. LOL. 90% of all boats would write out a hurricane no problem with no crew.

[Sectorsteve]

All the yachts that have claimed casualties and run aground in Australia over the last few years have all been over 40ft.
In 2017 i was sailing down the central qld boat in my 25 footer. It was windy and choppy for about a week. A massive fishing boat capsized at the same time i was sailing to Bundanberg. 1 survivor out of about 7/8. I found the conditions a bit uncomfortable but not dangerous - to me. But it was dangerous to that very large fishing boat.
The Syd to Hobart in 98 that claimed many lives saw one of the smallest boats (30feet) turn around in the middle of Bass Strait with a storm jib and a storm tri sail, and make it back to Eden, while the casualties/deaths were all from crew on the larger yachts.
Should i go on?
This isnt a debate on small vs big. Its an inspiring thread intended to show that a small
well founded, set up yacht with good crew can go anywhere larger yachts go.
Possibilities is a Tophat that also went around the horns, in Gales and big storms.
The 25 foot Tophat btw cost 30k in 1970's. To build one today costs over 100k. These older boats were overbuilt and the trend was to go lighter in construction after this.

[cj88]

I remember someone with a lot of experience recounting how they were caught in a major storm while crossing the Tasman Sea in a small light sailboat. They attributed their survival in part to the boat's ability to bob and it opened their eyes to what was possible in a small light boat. Of course seaworthy and sea kindly aren't always found in a small boat but survival is possible even if comfort may be lacking.

[thomm225]

So I'm rereading Maiden Voyage which is about Tania Aebi'e RTW sail on her Contessa 26 Varuna in the mid 80's.

That little boat got her thru some pretty bad weather...…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uARMJ6AGB8A&t=1s

[HappyGuy]

Originally Posted by Sectorsteve

This isnt a debate on small vs big. Its an inspiring thread intended to show that a small
well founded, set up yacht with good crew can go anywhere larger yachts go.
Possibilities is a Tophat that also went around the horns, in Gales and big storms.
The 25 foot Tophat btw cost 30k in 1970's. To build one today costs over 100k. These older boats were overbuilt and the trend was to go lighter in construction after this.

I have to agree with you totally Sectorsteve
I met an English Guy years ago who had sailed from UK to NZ in a 24 ft wooden boat - hard chine if I remember correctly. He was raising money for the UK heart foundation. (He had a heart condition himself)

After leaving NZ down in the southern ocean the boat sprang a leak.
He was rescued and a NZ boat building company Whiting Yachts supplied him with a Reactor (25 ft glass boat) which he sailed via Cape Horn back to UK.

In 1994 fifty or so yachts sailing from NZ to Tongs and Fiji ran into a storm where they had 80 knots consistent for three days. Seas measured by the Orion aircraft that went searching for those few that activated their EPIRB were measured on the radio altimeter at 100 feet.

One boat was lost with the three crew. A number were abandoned (about five if I remember correctly) One was deliberately rammed and sunk and the rest were all later found, either afloat or washed up on a reef somewhere.
The one that was lost was in the 35 to 40 ft range if I remember correctly.

Those that heaved too properly suffered no damage.

[Jim Cate]

Those that heaved too properly suffered no damage.

This would be hard to substantiate, and I know at least one boat, the Mary T which was hove to for hours and did suffer damage... barely survived. The conditions were too extreme for heaving to to be successful.

And for that matter, none of the boats involved were in the 25 foot range, so I'm not sure what your point was.

Jim

[HappyGuy]

The point I was making was in response to Chotu's comment about un-crewed boats surviving a hurricane.
I recall reading the testimony of a 30 foot yacht coming through that storm without damage by heaving to properly.
I am not aware of any boats smaller than that.

When I say heaving to properly I mean using the technique that Lin and Larry Pardy use and advocate. They never suffered damage on any occasion when the heaved to that way.
Others may have a different understanding of what heaving to means.

I have the video that was made about that storm and I don't recall the crew of Mary T saying they hove to properly. I'll have to re-watch the video.

Certainly none of those monohulls boats that were abandoned used that method. One lay ahull and was rolled 360 and one ran before the storm was pitchpoled and rolled breaking the skippers femur. Another was severely knocked down a number of occasions with the skipper being injured.

Serge Testa in his 11' 10" sloop Acrohc Australis survived a cyclone after leaving Cocos islands heading for South Africa, while on his round the world voyage.

[HappyGuy]

Anderw Fagen in his 18 foot sloop Swirly World in Perpetuity encounted force 10 winds in the Southern Ocean down near the Auckland Islands.
The seas get pretty big in those latitudes (50 degrees South)

See:-
On windswept seas | Stuff.co.nz

[scareygary]

I recommend John Kretchmer's book "Sailing a Serious Ocean" for those who want more info on this subject. BTW: Last I read, he sails a 47'er, a Kaufmann he swears by. Sections in the book on what a 'proper' seaworthy boat should have, and he mentions a number of boats he knows personally from deliveries. He's been through several hurricanes and knows whereof he speaks. Great read, imho. BTW: My boat, a little Albin 7.9 meter, is only 26', but it's got a small stout rig, is dry as a bone, has an encapsulated lead keel and a skeg hung rudder, all things that Kretchmer advises. I'm not taking her across oceans, but truly believe I could if I could solve storage issues and such. I sacrifice all out speed with this boat and struggle on the race course, but I like knowing I have a stout blow that will stand up to a lot more than I want to....

[fxykty]

Is the division between small boats and large boats standing headroom down below? That is a major factor for long term comfort when cruising or living aboard. The other issue is capacity of tanks. Sure, you can live on next to nothing in next to nothing for long periods of time (as a myriad of through hikers demonstrate every year on the Pacific Crest and Appalachian Trails can attest to, or the various sited sailing examples). But it ain’t necessarily comfortable!

You can not argue with a straight face that a given small boat is more comfortable in a moderate or large sea compared to a larger boat of similar design? The motion is relatively faster and further on the smaller boat - that’s physics. Similarly, a larger boat can keep sailing in lighter winds on a big left over sea due to inertia and a higher rig, while a smaller boat will wallow.

I cruised with my parents on a series of boats from 18-32 feet, taking 3 (25 Folboat, 28 Great Dane and 32 steel Van de Stadt) offshore from British Columbia to Hawaii (the smaller two) and around the South Pacific with the largest. All were moderate to heavy traditional designs. The Folkboat was an absolute sailing witch, with great manners other than awful rolling downwind. But no standing headroom below (well, for me yes back then). The Great Dane was our first truly comfortable boat as we could stand up inside and had an enclosed head for the first time that meant you could sit down without disrupting a bunk and removing the table. But she was still too small to deal well with slop and large wakes (lots of those in the PNW) hence we found the Van de Stadt before we set sail for the Marquesas. We buddy boated with a 47 foot Swan (they had two kids my age, very rare in the S Pacific in the late 70s and early 80s) and that boat out sailed us in all conditions, had ice cream(!!!!) and a washing machine (my mum cared about that) and was vastly more comfortable in a variety of conditions. The only time we were happier with our boat was while lying to anchor through a hurricane - we had much less windage and our storm anchor was relatively twice as big as theirs. They dragged, we didn’t.

I’m not dissing small boats for cruising. Properly designed, built and sailed they’re as safe as larger boats (also well designed, built and sailed - don’t bring in not-like for like). But don’t bloviate about more comfort.

[HappyGuy]

The Sparkman and Stevens 24ft yacht I had was fitted with two built in water tanks of 70 litre capacity each. Plus I could carry extra water in containers.
I had 5' 8'' of headroom which allowed me standing headroom in the main cabin.
Plenty of locker space for stores.

I fitted a 7hp diesel inboard with folding prop.
I fitted a modified Bill Belcher servo paddle self steering gear which worked brilliantly. Self draining cockpit with four 2" drains, Heavy aluminium mast with 6mm rigging.

I sold her two years ago due to health issues
I had planned to take her from Brisbane to New Caledonia back to the Qld coast, up to Darwin - then Indonesia, back to Australia - then around Australia.

If I had my health I would be out there now doing just that.
That boat will go anywhere any bigger boat will go - no problem!! And do it with a reasonable level of comfort.

The present owner plans on taking her to Indonesia from NSW..

A sister ship was sailed without incident from NZ to the Caribbean single handed and two handed from there to France.

[Jim Cate]

I have the video that was made about that storm and I don't recall the crew of Mary T saying they hove to properly. I'll have to re-watch the video.

You saw the video, I was there in Opua, talking to Sig (skipper of the Mary T) on the radio, trying to help him figure out how the copious water was getting below while hove to, and then on board in Fiji shortly later helping him repair the steering gear which had failed. We knew almost every boat involved, from the Coremans on Heart of Gold to Keith Levy who abandoned Sofia(we gave him his first sailing lesson on that boat in Auckland harbour), and Dana and Paula on Destiny. Oh yeah... I remember Dana telling us that Paula had bad omens about the passage and didn't want to go. Had we been ready to leave, we would have been out there with them... procrastination sometimes is a good thing!

As to the Pardeys and their heaving to successes: as far as I've read, they never were in weather nearly as severe as the Queens Birthday storm, so their experience isn't germane to that issue. Most folks will never be exposed to such conditions in a lifetime of cruising.

Remind me of the name of the 30 footer. I can't remember one that was in the main force of the storm.

I will agree that there are plenty of folks who have made epic voyages in smaller yachts. But there are plenty of NAs and plenty of tank tests that have shown that there is a strong relationship between vessel size and the size of wave required to capsize it. A small boat may recover from capsize, but not capsizing is better and a large boat may recover too.

Jim

PS The boat that was lost was Quartermaster, a Lidgard 40 with 4 aboard. We had been talking to them on the radio and they seemed to be doing OK and were also trying to aid Sig and the Mary T. No trace of the boat was found to my knowledge.