Capsize / MOB challenge.

[Pelagic]

So Wotname…do we continue this with you setting the scene?

Sound of organ music

• Does the Mate, live or die?
• What are the psychological factors?
• How much of the rig was left and where was it broken?
• How do we handle the next storm?
• What happens when the last GPS fails?

Tune in tomorrow folks………

[imagine2frolic]

Halfway between NZ,

[imagine2frolic]

and the Hoorn. I am not wasting the battery on the epirb yet. This is the Southern Ocean, and you best be self suffecient. Post said no electronics, and that's what I am going by. You just don't kill yourself saving someone else. Anyone who is in the Southern Ocean should understand this. What good is 2 dead bodies? To you know where with the lawsuits.

As my post said I am multi tasking between the holing of the boat with the mast, and seeking my mate. If, and where I see him, and his condition will dictate my action for him.

I forgot about throwing horse shoes, and stuff over. That is my number one rule on Imagine. The shoe with strobe is the first thing over, and then MOB.

I do think Mrs. Smeeton was tossed over with a broken arm on one of their rollovers. How fun to do it twice, and in the same area?

[MidLandOne]

I wouldn't chuck the EPIRB over the side, for two main reasons -

It will not aid the survival of the casualty in the sea conditions described and will add little (nothing?) to being able to find him/her in the conditions.

But MOST importantly I might need it myself given the state of the weather and the boat (and I know my lost crew mate Ex-Calif would understand that ).

To give some ideas of how hard it is to find a person in the water even in calm/calmish and much warmer conditions once contact is lost here are 2 examples -

1. During the first (think it was the first) 2 man Melbourne-Osaka race Digby Taylor's boat (called Castaway Fiji from memory) lost its keel and capsized in the tropical Coral Sea. His crew was separated from the boat and Taylor threw the Argos buoy (used for race position and safety tracking by the organisers) over the side. I had the opportunity of following the whole search in detail. Taylor, who stayed with the boat til the last moment was picked up by a merchant ship clinging to the last 6 foot or so of mast and sail above the water. The merchant ship, with Taylor on board, and aircraft (search managed by Penta Comsat at that time) searched for over 2 days (forgotten the exact number of hours but was around that) before giving up the search. It was only around the end of that time that the Argos buoy, much larger than an EPIRB and still transmitting, was found. Even in the warm sea conditions and the crew known to be a strong swimmer he was not found - oh, and the family complained for ages after that the search was not conducted for much longer.

2. Not long ago just out in the sea in front of our home a diver got separated from the boat and crew. He was a very experienced navy diver, equipped well and the tidal effects well known (it was in a longish channel a number of miles wide between the coast and an off lying island) so was given a good chance of surviving. Despite intensive air and surface searches it was a smidgen over 3 days, drifting backwards and forwards a few miles each way out to sea in front of our house before he was spotted quite by chance within a very short distance of where he was first lost, fortunately because of his experience and strength he was alive but near delirious (he had gotten to the stage where he had removed the top of his wet suit). That was in warmish and calm waters at approx 40 degrees South.

Now, some may still think that someone may likely be found in storm conditions many hours/days after becoming separated from the boat in the Southern Ocean - I obviously disagree. But whether you agree with me or not, hopefully some will see some merit from the above of whatever happens of staying attached to the boat, and that in storm conditions that is the only hope of survival. NZ is responsible for one of the largest, and with Chile/Easter Island probably the most challenging SAR regions in the world. Orion crews here say that even yachts are very hard to pick out in heavy seas let alone rafts and bodies and the best thing one can do is to paint a large rescue orange square on the deck - we don't do that but do carry a large rescue orange square of sail cloth with our sail number on it and a mast head strobe for assisting location at night in case of distress (I know of one vessel that was located by a ship at night in the Southern Ocean in storm and snowing conditions by just the EPIRB strobe and a lot of luck).

Perhaps to add to the challenge, assuming you have chucked the EPIRB over the side when first distressed -

By the time a merchant ship arrives you will be well separated from the EPIRB due to your much higher wind drift in the storm conditions even if by chance a ship gets to the scene within the likely absolute lucky minimum of (say) 4 hours from a INMARSAT C alert initiated after the EPIRB is initiated. It will likely not sight you (you have no mast and sails, just a low lying part flooded hull) nor you sight it in the conditions. The ship will not be searching for a head in the water but a raft or the yacht at the EPIRB position.

So, if a day later the ship turns up on the scene and does come across you and you are now all comfy and organised to jury rig sail home what are you going to tell them?

Alternatively, if you find that you eventually have to abandon the yacht how long do you think you will last in storm conditions in the raft after the search is abandoned at the EPIRB position site?

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by MidLandOne

But MOST importantly I might need it myself given the state of the weather and the boat (and I know my lost crew mate Ex-Calif would understand that ).

Actually I am cool with that. 30 minutes after you abandoned me a college coed team bent on breaking the "Around the World Sailing Naked" record picked me up and proceeded to revive me with fruity rum drinks and proximate body heat transfer techniques.

Unfortunately they refused to make landfall and ruin their record chances so I had to stay on for the duration.

(OK sun's a little hot here today - LOL)

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

So Wotname…do we continue this with you setting the scene?

Sound of organ music

• Does the Mate, live or die?
• What are the psychological factors?
• How much of the rig was left and where was it broken?
• How do we handle the next storm?
• What happens when the last GPS fails?

Tune in tomorrow folks………

OK, lets move on:
It's been a tough night but the boat is still floating, has been pumped (manually) so that the water level is below the cabin sole, the para-anchor is actually working holding the bow about 50 degrees off the weather.

The mast was on the leeward side and not doing any structual damage. The washboards have been replaced with the spare set but the leeward window is still broken (and there are no spare windows).

Below decks the cabin is a shambles with gear scattered everywhere and everything has been wet. There is a film of diesel coating everything.

You have had a couple hours sleep (with no lookout, but you where past caring about that).

You awoke around 9 am local time and ate some cold beans from a can. The storm is moderating, winds occasionally dropping to below 40 kts and the seas are only breaking very occasionally.

You set to work not really knowing what to do but by mid afternoon, you have cut away the mast salvaging only the following:
The boom, spinnaker pole (only 1), the mainsail, but not the trisail, the staysail (boat was cutter rigged), but not the headsail or furling gear. You have an assortment of stays in various lengths that were saved from the rig. Below you have a spinnaker and a storm jib.

You have discovered why you had lost all electrics, The distribution panel was smashed by an unknown lose object during the roll over, a table knife was wedged against the bus and the earth point (poor design, nothing is perfect) Both main fuseable links were taken out on the battery leads. You have removed the knife, replaced the fuseable links and find you have basic electrical circuits like lights and pumps.

However the electronic equipment is still not working (for various different reasons - smashed, water ingress, antennas gone, etc); e.g. radios, radar, log, sounder, GPS, chart plotter, refrigeration and so on. At this satge you haven't tried the engine and you don't know the current status of the alternator or regulator.

You also discover that you can't locate the spare batteries for the handheld radio and handheld GPS.

You still have the life raft (the Givens) but not the ships EPIRB. Rightly or wrongly, that was tossed over the side the night before; however you still have you own PLB that is attached to the survival suit.

The only large scale charts you have is Port Stanley and Cape Town but you have (waterlogged) small scale charts of the south eastern Pacific and southern Alantic. You also have the current Pilots for these areas. Your original destintation had been Cape Town.

You also have your sextant but haven't used it for many years and you have the sight reduction tables and current almanac (wet of course). Although the ships clock is battery powered and still working, you can't be sure of its accuracy as you have gotten out of the habit of checking it. You note there is a 2 minute 20 second discrepancy between the clock and your watch (which also hasn't been checked for a couple of months).

Your best mate (who was also your recently married bride) is gone and of course you are devasted by her probable death. This is compounded by the fact you know her parents were always against her marrying you as they didn't abide with off shore cruising let alone sailing short handed in the Southern Ocean. You can't get the thoughts of meeting them again out of your head and you are wondering (at times) if you should just to give up and step over the side. Deep down you know at some level, she only went sailing with you to prove her independence from her family. This weighs heavily on your mind.

You are also having serious miss-givings about deploying the EPIRB as you don't know what train of events has been put in place once its signal was received and relayed to the NZ RCC.


However the will to live is stronger and late in the afternoon, you take stock of your situation as you prepare your first hot drink since the capsize (black instant coffee with a dash of medicinal brandy). The weather has steadied to around 30 to 35 kts from the SW.

What do you do next.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Actually I am cool with that. 30 minutes after you abandoned me a college coed team bent on breaking the "Around the World Sailing Naked" record picked me up and proceeded to revive me with fruity rum drinks and proximate body heat transfer techniques.

Unfortunately they refused to make landfall and ruin their record chances so I had to stay on for the duration.

(OK sun's a little hot here today - LOL)

I guess Ex-Calif is out of the loop for awhile. The way he tells it, he has all his bases covered as I note the team is coed .

I would have been just as happy if I had been picked up the the competing 'all female under 25 team" although if the true be know, even a big ugly burly copper coming down a winch cable would have looked rather beautiful that night.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by MidLandOne

...Don't think I would bother with the EPIRB though unless it was determined that I had to evacuate the boat or was impossible to jury rig to sail to port. No resources initiated by an EPIRB alert will get to the remote site in time to save anyone in the water so wouldn't be any help for rescuing the overboard mate - emotion might get the better of me though

Originally Posted by Pelagic

The one thing about activating the EPIRB is that other ships would get a Mayday relay and if near might be able to help in the search.
(You can’t know what’s out there and the same reason you would try VHF)

Originally Posted by Tellie

I don't want to hijack a thread either but...

I'm no expert on law, but what legal repercussions could there be for those captains who would not set off their EPIRB because they thought there is no chance of rescuing their mate they just lost minutes earlier? If I were a family member of that mate I'd be making a strong case of you thinking your boat was more important than his life.

Originally Posted by hellosailor

....AFAIK the only defensible legal position (against civil and criminal liability alike) would be to say that I'd made EVERY possible attempt to aid the MOB, and punching the button on the EPIRB is just so easy, I'd call it criminal if someone didn't. You never know what other resources might be just over the horizon--like a naval vessel with rescue helo and FLIR equipment on board. It is incredibly easy for Big Gray Boats to hide in the gray of the sea and horizon, even in good wx.

From the UN's Law of the Sea (which is a convention, not just tradition):
http://www.un.org/Depts/los/conventi...s/unclos_e.pdf

Article 98
Duty to render assistance
1. Every State shall require the master of a ship flying its flag, in so far
as he can do so without serious danger to the ship, the crew or the passengers:
(a) to render assistance to any person found at sea in danger of
being lost;
(b) to proceed with all possible speed to the rescue of persons in
distress, if informed of their need of assistance, in so far as such
action may reasonably be expected of him;...

If you are captaining a documented/flagged vessel, you are REQUIRED BY LAW to render assistance to that MOB, if your nation has signed onto this. Penalties will vary with your sovereign.

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

... I am not wasting the battery on the epirb yet. This is the Southern Ocean, and you best be self suffecient. ....

Originally Posted by MidLandOne

I wouldn't chuck the EPIRB over the side, for two main reasons -

It will not aid the survival of the casualty in the sea conditions described and will add little (nothing?) to being able to find him/her in the conditions.

But MOST importantly I might need it myself given the state of the weather and the boat (and I know my lost crew mate Ex-Calif would understand that )......

Although this maybe considered thread drift, I believe this is valid (and important) debate. Unlike say anchors which sailors use regularly, most of us never have turned an EPIRB on, so when to use it does become a worthwhile discussuion. This challenge is just pushing the question from black and white into the gray zone.

As seen from above, there are two schools of thought and I believe most of the points on either side of the debate are valid.

However, to make the answer clearer, let's only consider latest technology equipment namely EPIRB's and PLB's complete with internal GPS and strobes and also let's go back to first principles.

1. The argument about keeping the EPIRB intact for potential later use is a red herrring. I have repeatedly posted that there is a serviceable PLB with the remaining man on board so that is available for later use if required. There might also be an EPIRB packed in the life raft!!!!

2. When to activate an EPIRB ( or PLB) is actually straightforward. Under Aussie law (and I assume elsewhere), an EPIRB should only be activated when the vessel or persons using it are in grave and imminent danger AND all other means to summons assistance have been exhausted.


3. In this challenge we have the following situation:

• one person missing overboard and who is (IMO) in grave and imminent danger
• one person on board an disabled vessel both of which is IMO, not in grave and imminent danger.

Certainly it is serious but given there is no indication the vessel is actually sinking, it is not in imminent danger. If the HF was working, the situation of the vessel would warrant a PAN PAN call rather than a MAYDAY call - again IMO.
However the MOB would warrant a MAYDAY call.

4. Given we have no radio (except a handheld VHF and no known shipping within VHF range), all other means to summons assistance have been exhausted. By all means pop off a red parachute fare just to be sure about this point.

5. Therefore IMO, the action to activate 406 distress message is warranted for the MOB. As we can't be sure that the MOB is conscious and has activated their own PLB, the question now becomes should we activate the ship's EPIRB. Remember that a PLB is not required to be water activated.

6. Once again, activating the ship's EPIRB while the EPIRB is attached to the ship is not warranted.

7. Activating one's own PLB is also not warranted nor can it be tossed into the sea as PLB's are not required to float (although some might).

8. Only course of action is to do nothing or activate the ship's EPIRB and toss it over the side. The EPIRB is required to float (and may or may not be water activated).

9. IMO, we would be required to take ALL actions that COULD assist the MOB with the proviso of not endangering one own life. Activating the EPIRB would not endanger ourselves - even potentially later as there is still the PLB on board.

10. No where is it stated that we should only take actions that we know BEFORE HAND, will be successful. The fact that the EPIRB is unlikey to be of assistance does not preclude its use. The fact that is floating out there somewhere near the MOB giving off a postion report to within at least 500 metres (and typically 100 metres) plus a strobe just MIGHT make a difference even at 10,000 to one chance. I think it was Hellosailor who made this point the best.

11. I concede that the RCC will be looking for a boat rather than a MOB but again, given the circumstances, this fact does not preclude the use of the EPIRB as it was the only option left available to the person on board.

12. If the cavalary does turn up (very unlikey in this situation), you still have the hand held VHF to communicate with them and to explain the situation. Namely, EPIRB was activated on behalf of MOB, was left floating nearby them, vessel is not in a grave and imminent danger as so does not require assistance (assuming this to be the case), and that your future safety is still secured by floating vessel jury rigged complete with life raft and PLB.

13. The above arguments assume that the boat was unable to conduct it's own search for the MOB at the time of the incident.

14. The history of previous attempts of locating a EPIRB or MOB (or even a yacht) should not influence the decsion making procress of activating the EPIRB especially since current technology has largely altered the search procress

Given GPS techology in the beacon and GPS technology with the search vessel / aircraft, this search area is reduced to square metres, rather than square kilometers.

Of course, it is still as hard to see a MOB as ever before but the area to look in has been reduced by several orders of magnitude.

My two cents worth!

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by MidLandOne

.....

1. During the first (think it was the first) 2 man Melbourne-Osaka race Digby Taylor's boat (called Castaway Fiji from memory) lost its keel and capsized in the tropical Coral Sea. His crew was separated from the boat and Taylor threw the Argos buoy (used for race position and safety tracking by the organisers) over the side. I had the opportunity of following the whole search in detail. Taylor, who stayed with the boat til the last moment was picked up by a merchant ship clinging to the last 6 foot or so of mast and sail above the water. The merchant ship, with Taylor on board, and aircraft (search managed by Penta Comsat at that time) searched for over 2 days (forgotten the exact number of hours but was around that) before giving up the search. It was only around the end of that time that the Argos buoy, much larger than an EPIRB and still transmitting, was found. Even in the warm sea conditions and the crew known to be a strong swimmer he was not found - oh, and the family complained for ages after that the search was not conducted for much longer.
...

Yes it was the first AFIK, I remember that event as I was cruising the Qld coast that year and was a member of the Penta Comsat net. It was an errie feeling anchored up nice and snug in a Whitsunday tropical anchorage listening to the disater and unfolding events of the search that was not really that far away. Part of me wanted to tune out and yet part of me wanted to know what was happening even though nothing could be achieved by knowing - very morbid yet understandable (I think ).

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Wotname

the leeward window is still broken (and there are no spare windows).

Fortunately the window is not big Would cut up a bunk board or similar to make a rough blank, maybe pack it out a cushion / bedding. does not have to be 100% waterproof, just to deflect waves and to prevent spray coming straight in. Probably drill and then bolt straight through the cabin sides.

There is a film of diesel coating everything.

Not a major priority, but would thow a bucket or 10 of seawater around. Probably with Washing powder mixed up. be nice if the auto bilge pump worked

You awoke around 9 am local time and ate some cold beans from a can.

Not sure why the electrics failing means no hot food. But I would try for some hot food. and a cup of tea. fortunately my ciggies are still dry - due to careful stowage. always

You also discover that you can't locate the spare batteries for the handheld radio and handheld GPS.

I would look harder In any event bound to be some batteries that could be recycled from other (now non working) gear onboard. But would minimise use of the VHF and GPS. and plan that I would lose them at some point, whilst hoping I did not.

The boom, spinnaker pole (only 1), the mainsail, but not the trisail, the staysail (boat was cutter rigged), but not the headsail or furling gear. You have an assortment of stays in various lengths that were saved from the rig. Below you have a spinnaker and a storm jib.

The new rig will take a bit of thought. and no doubt trial and error. My first thought is some sort of Lateen Rig given the lack of main mast height - plus an ability to reef (or at least stow the sail on deck).

The only large scale charts you have is Port Stanley and Cape Town but you have (waterlogged) small scale charts of the south eastern Pacific and southern Alantic. You also have the current Pilots for these areas. Your original destintation had been Cape Town.

I do not have a mental picture of where we are (and too lazy to Google ) - given my new sailing ability (or lack of) I will be folliowing the current and / or prevailing winds, hopefully not at the mercy of - but I figure they will be choosing my continent, if not also my country of destination! I figure Navigation will be more about working out where I am already going (and what help I can give towards it) rather than helping me choose a destination.

You also have your sextant but haven't used it for many years and you have the sight reduction tables and current almanac (wet of course). Although the ships clock is battery powered and still working, you can't be sure of its accuracy as you have gotten out of the habit of checking it. You note there is a 2 minute 20 second discrepancy between the clock and your watch (which also hasn't been checked for a couple of months).

Not knowing one end of a sextant from the other - I cannot even start with the wishful thinking on this one. Obviously dry out what papercharts / books I have. Also plot my last position (and the MOB) and also use the GPS to plot my current position......and try and work out where my mate could be.....and if feasible I would retrack and look even though essentially hopeless. Call it politeness In any event I figure another few days onto the forthcoming epic voyage home won't matter a great deal if the boat is essentially sound. even if now slow and unweildy.

Your best mate (who was also your recently married bride) is gone

Ouch. That one came as a nasty surprise. Only partly cos' up to now I had mentally been thinking of someone else. all 18 stone (250 pounds) of him . A very different dynamic on the feelings of responsibilty with da Missus.

and of course you are devasted by her probable death.

The key here for me is "probable". I may intellectually know that she ain't coming back no matter what I did, but I would spend as long as I needed looking for her - even at a million to one chance and decreasing by the hour. For that chance I would have cut me right arm off. Why? Well, I figure it's 'til death us do part. for both of us. any risk to boat / myself is immaterial. besides, it's not as if I now have a reason to go anywhere, let alone a need to rush. "home".

Which leads on too........

This is compounded by the fact you know her parents were always against her marrying you as they didn't abide with off shore cruising let alone sailing short handed in the Southern Ocean. You can't get the thoughts of meeting them again out of your head and you are wondering (at times) if you should just to give up and step over the side. Deep down you know at some level, she only went sailing with you to prove her independence from her family. This weighs heavily on your mind.

Should have married an orphan But Family?. Fook 'em. Fair enuf they will have their own sh#tty stuff to deal with, but yer ain't married to them. Step over the side? Nah, not if I am still looking for da Missus....but if that involved Sailing to the Moon, then so be it.

You are also having serious miss-givings about deploying the EPIRB as you don't know what train of events has been put in place once its signal was received and relayed to the NZ RCC.

No I am not. Mild concern maybe that no one has been put in danger. But that is about it.

However the will to live is stronger and late in the afternoon, you take stock of your situation as you prepare your first hot drink since the capsize (black instant coffee with a dash of medicinal brandy). The weather has steadied to around 30 to 35 kts from the SW.

What do you do next.

I am sailing round in circles without da Missus.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

[SIZE=3][SIZE=2]....
Not sure why the electrics failing means no hot food. But I would try for some hot food. and a cup of tea. fortunately my ciggies are still dry - due to careful stowage. always

Only reason for the cold food was to paint the picture of a being fooked and friendless and far from home.

I agree that hot food, tea, coffee all important things to aim for.

Toss the ciggies over the side in case the MOB is desperate for one , do you both good .

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Toss the ciggies over the side in case the MOB is desperate for one , do you both good .

That's how my mate went over. He threw me ciggies overboard. I lied about the rollover on the other thread

[MoonlightShadow]

Well, I haven't chipped in yet, but here's my 'twopennance' worth.

1. My first thoughts would be how grateful I was that I read wotname's thread on Cruisers Forum a while ago.

2. How pleased I was, that after reading it, I had built in triple-redundant electrical systems with sealed battery packs.

3. How relieved I felt, that I had made sealed watertight bulkheads and compartmentalisation (including a sealed ciggy compartment to keep my baccy and cigarette papers dry), so that it was only the main cabin that was knee deep in water, and my triple-redundant auto bilge-pumps had kicked in and were emptying that now, even as I type.

4. Good job that all my lifejackets had built in MOB squawkers, and that I could clearly see on screen just where my newly married (but clearly stupid) bride was.

5. With debris cut-away by my fully-trained crew (whom I had taken aboard after reading this thread and realising my own limitations), and windows repaired with the damage control equipment we carried on board, I have now come about in my Motor Sailor and am tracking back onto the MOB contact.

6. However, I am tugged back to reality as we approach the MOB contact, as I see a big bronzed Aussie single-hander lifting my wife from the water onto his million pound yacht.

7. I establish radio contact with the Aussie, who tells me he has claimed Lloyds Open Form Salvage on my wife, and she is going to run away with him to his private tropical paradise island to live happily ever after, and I realise she was not so stupid after all.

8. I go to my sealed locker and find that all my cigarette papers are wet. So, I nick one of David from Jersey's Mary-Anne cigarettes, sit down with a ciggy and a mug of tea, and wish I had not changed the boats name.

Seriously though, absolutely tremendous thread. Both thought provoking and educational. Some serious heavyweight input. May none of us ever face such a circumstance, but if we do, I for one, will be better armed to cope with it, while hoping one or more of you are nearby to help.

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by MoonlightShadow

Well, I haven't chipped in yet, but here's my 'twopennance' worth.

1. My first thoughts would be how grateful I was that I read wotname's thread on Cruisers Forum a while ago.

2. How pleased I was, that after reading it, I had built in triple-redundant electrical systems with sealed battery packs.

3. How relieved I felt, that I had made sealed watertight bulkheads and compartmentalisation (including a sealed ciggy compartment to keep my baccy and cigarette papers dry), so that it was only the main cabin that was knee deep in water, and my triple-redundant auto bilge-pumps had kicked in and were emptying that now, even as I type.

4. Good job that all my lifejackets had built in MOB squawkers, and that I could clearly see on screen just where my newly married (but clearly stupid) bride was.

5. With debris cut-away by my fully-trained crew (whom I had taken aboard after reading this thread and realising my own limitations), and windows repaired with the damage control equipment we carried on board, I have now come about in my Motor Sailor and am tracking back onto the MOB contact.

6. However, I am tugged back to reality as we approach the MOB contact, as I see a big bronzed Aussie single-hander lifting my wife from the water onto his million pound yacht.

7. I establish radio contact with the Aussie, who tells me he has claimed Lloyds Open Form Salvage on my wife, and she is going to run away with him to his private tropical paradise island to live happily ever after, and I realise she was not so stupid after all.

8. I go to my sealed locker and find that all my cigarette papers are wet. So, I nick one of David from Jersey's Mary-Anne cigarettes, sit down with a ciggy and a mug of tea, and wish I had not changed the boats name.

Seriously though, absolutely tremendous thread. Both thought provoking and educational. Some serious heavyweight input. May none of us ever face such a circumstance, but if we do, I for one, will be better armed to cope with it, while hoping one or more of you are nearby to help.

LOL That was great!

[David_Old_Jersey]

LOL

(BTW a suspicious amount of knowledge on the "Mary Ann" front............)