Brokers

[carraigdog]

I would like to see advertised boats with some link that directly connects to the owner.
Ive just had an offer refused by a broker saying that he wouldn't even put it to the owner , I factored in the cost to replace 2 x 36 year old engines and the headlining replacement (drooping all over the photos) , I thought 55K against a boat with obvious defects priced at 80 K was reasonable. Maybe Im naive

[rwaldrop13]

Originally Posted by Magic1st

I have heard it before, but, I am experiencing it now. I have yet to talk to a broker for a boat I have contacted. I only had one. ONE email me a one line sentence response. Yes it is still available in XXXXXXXX. My questions are simple; for example, is it available and is it on the hard or in the water. Do brokers not want to sell a boat? Really odd... and I would be pissed if I was selling......... Yes, I leave my name and number on all emails and voicemails.

my .02

I had an amazingly BAD experience with the largest brokerage firm in the US (According to their website) when my wife and I were looking at boats last summer. I called the broker's number, not actually expecting an answer about a listing here in New Bern, NC. The response I got was "Look a-hole, that boat is already under contract and being surveyed today, I don't have time for this s-t!" followed by him hanging up. Him being the owner of the brokerage AND the person that was answering the phone number listed for that boat. This conversation was on speakerphone on my end, so my wife and I were both listening in shock. BTW, YachtWorld did NOT list the boat as under contract and neither did the brokerage website - that's why I called. I posted my experience with the brokerage to Yelp and Google, and the broker's lawyer sent me a threatening letter demanding I remove the review. I referenced the Consumer Protection Act of 2016 which states I cannot be sued for stating my opinion of my experience, but both websites removed the listing anyway without my involvement. I won't name names, but if you PM me I will tell you who it was. I am now dealing with *** out of Sarasota, and they have been everything I wanted without being a nuisance. If I don't buy one of the 2 they have listed, they've offered to act as buyer's agent in the other 2 boats I am looking at.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by carraigdog

I would like to see advertised boats with some link that directly connects to the owner.
Ive just had an offer refused by a broker saying that he wouldn't even put it to the owner , I factored in the cost to replace 2 x 36 year old engines and the headlining replacement (drooping all over the photos) , I thought 55K against a boat with obvious defects priced at 80 K was reasonable. Maybe Im naive

The seller may have already discussed with the broker that he wouldn't entire a price below 'x'. Regardless of whether the sellers bottom line is reasonable.

There are many boat owners who are upside in a loan. Maybe he has a balance on a loan that he can't cover if the sale price is too low.

The seller is hiring a broker because he doesn't want to deal with the selling process. I wouldn't want to get called directly by all buyers interested in my boat. I don't have time for that. That is what I'm paying a broker to deal with.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

I have had few interaction with brokers, they were all late, and supplied virtually no added value to the sellers of the boats we looked at outside of removing the padlock on the companion way so we could enter the boats. They all came across as guys who had long since stopped having any actual interest in boats, or were just B/S artists, and knew less about the boats than we had already found out before we made the appointments. So we skipped them altogether and went the for sale by owner route, what a huge difference, it was easier, and far more useful information was happily given. We purchased both of the boats we have owned in that fashion. I suspect a ratio of one in fifty brokers actually do a little of what is expected of them by the seller or buyer. The Broker business sadly has a very bad reputation and it has persisted for decades. It must suck for the few good brokers that are out there to have to overcome that reputation.’

Fair winds,

Agree that brokers add little value beyond opening the lock. Boat and real estate.


But just like real estate brokers, yacht brokers do add one more value -- access to the MLS. And just like houses, it is VERY difficult to buy a boat DIY. I can go to Yachtworld and find 50 or so Sabre 34's (my last boat). If I wanted a Sabre 34, I am not sure I could find more than 2 or 3 DIY. Our current boat, a Saga 43, was even harder -- they made 54, and there are about 5 on Yachtworld (I haven't looked up recent listings on the Sabre or the Saga, so my numbers are probably wrong). Not sure you could find any of those DIY.


Yes, if you have broad criteria (35-40', under $50K), you can probably find it DIY. When I bought the Sabre, it was DIY, and I wasn't very picky on what I bought. When we bought the Saga, we had narrowed the list to half a dozen design/models. And none were available DIY. Go find an aft-cockpit 40-something Passport with a sugar scoop, or a Sceprte 43, or a Saga 43, or an old Stevens 47.



Oh, and while we were certainly serious buyers (we have a boat sold by a broker), during the 2-year hunt, we probably looked at 2 dozen boats, some that were not serious contenders (but close enough to be worthy of our time to look). During the first year, we probably were tire-kickers, just looking at options and framing our choices. Although, curiously, the boat we finally bought was one of those "too pricey, not quite our selection criteria" boats that we truly had no intention of buying and only looked at as a "surrogate" for a boat 1000 miles away (that we then went to look at and didn't buy). So, the broker ended up selling a boat 2 years later to a genuine, no kidding tire kicker (the price fell 30% in the interim, and we came to grips with the hopeless mix of "must haves" we were targeting).


All customers are tire kickers until the contract is signed. And neither the broker nor the buyer know which boat is "the one." Beyond a bored broke dreamer, or course.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

But just like real estate brokers, yacht brokers do add one more value -- access to the MLS. And just like houses, it is VERY difficult to buy a boat DIY. I can go to Yachtworld and find 50 or so Sabre 34's (my last boat). If I wanted a Sabre 34, I am not sure I could find more than 2 or 3 DIY.

Agreed, and it's another pet peeve of mine. Last time I checked Yachtworld only allowed posting from brokers. So, as a seller, you must go through a broker to have your boat listed on YW, which is still the most important platform for selling boats.

The solution is simple. YW should allow owner-sellers to post their ads on its service. Charge a reasonable fee, of course, but let owners list directly.

This would remove the necessity for owners to list with brokers. Without that, brokers would actually have to compete largely on the quality of service they provide. Of course, just like with the MLS, this is (or was) the exact reason access is/was restricted. If forces sellers to use brokers.

I recall the MLS system was finally opened up (at least in Canada) following court cases. I don't recall the details, but I believe it had something to do with anti-trust or monopoly activity.

Perhaps a similar legal challenge could open up YW.

[BBill]

Originally Posted by Shrew

-> Call via phone, don't send an E-mail

-> Whether you speak with the broker or leave message, request a showing.

-> Don't ask a bunch of tire-kicker questions during the initial contact. Simply book an appointment.

Tire Kicker Questions:

Is It still available?
Is there a survey?
Are there maintenance records?
How old is......?
When was the last time <Blah> was done?


You can rage against the process all you want, but if you're initial contact is an E-mail asking things like "Is it still available" expect to to enjoy the sound of silence.

Incidentally, 90% of responses from online sites like Craig's List ask the same question. I respond and never get a reply back from the 'interested' buyer.

Simple put, any broker who doesn't answer those questions is in the jr leagues and probably a part timer, short timer or newbie in the business. Top tier brokers answer those questions and know how to cultivate customers with answers. They are the same brokers who work their way up to firms who sell mega yachts while the others never get that far.

[Endurance1]

Purely for amusement and entertainment (and we all could use a little humor these days during the COVID-19 pandemic), I thought I'd share a few of my broker experiences over the years, regarding boats I wanted to buy.

Boat #1 - I saw at a used boat show. At the time it was 5 years old, in spectacular condition, perfect for what we wanted. But it was priced at $895k, which I thought was absolutely insane (and WAY out of my budget). I told the broker I'd be a serious cash buyer, but thought it was realistically worth around half of that. The broker laughed at me. They told me the boat couldn't be bought for 'six something', that maybe a strong offer in the 'sevens' might get it. Over the next two years I saw the price progressively lowered to $495k, and I understand it finally sold for $450k (which I would have been willing to pay - two years earlier).

Boat #2 - 7 years old at the time, listed at $399k. I thought that was high, and I offered $325k. The broker was indignant, wouldn’t present my offer to the seller, and told me $350k might buy the boat, to 'try' $375k, and maybe something could be worked out in between. I passed. The boat stayed on the market for 5 years, over which time the price was progressively dropped to $249k, and I understand it finally sold for $225k - $100,000 less than I had offered 5 years before.

Boat #3 - 6 years old at the time, listed at $399k. I thought that was high, and I offered $300k. This broker was also indignant, also wouldn’t present my offer to the seller, and said he didn't know if even $375k would do it. I passed. 7 years later I got an email from the same broker saying the seller would take $149k, and would I be interested?

There seem to be a couple of ways of trying to sell a boat. One way is to price it fairly, which would seem to minimize the nuisance ‘haggling’ and be the way to sell quickly. The other way is to initially price it sky-high, in hopes that the “right buyer” (meaning, a sucker) will show up and pay it. These three experiences, and others I’ve had, were with boats that took the latter approach, hoping for a sucker.

I often wonder where that comes from, if it’s an unrealistic seller insisting on an impossibly unattainable price (because they ‘know what they have’), or inadequate guidance from a broker in not telling a seller what their boat could realistically sell for. Or maybe even brokers also hoping for the “right buyer” to over-pay and thus earn a bigger commission? (There seem to be some brokers out there whose listings to me appear to consistently be over-priced, but maybe I’m just getting too picky and curmudgeonly myself in my cantankerous old age, I don't have patience for BS anymore).

I have worked with one broker (in selling a boat) who was outstanding. He did exactly what he said he would do (and what he wouldn't do), was responsive, and genuinely helpful in selling my boat. But, I hate to say it, that's been about it. I have yet to come across anyone else like him with any boat for sale I've contacted.

[BlueH2Obound]

Originally Posted by Endurance1

Purely for amusement and entertainment (and we all could use a little humor these days during the COVID-19 pandemic), I thought I'd share a few of my broker experiences over the years, regarding boats I wanted to buy.

Didn't quote your entire post, but you've brought up some interesting points. My questions include . . . in the years that the boats you commented on above sat waiting to sell . . . did the owners keep up on routine maintenance? Like ZINCS, periodic haul outs, running dehumidifiers in the cabin, checking for leakage, periodically running engines/generators/AC units, etc?
I've seen lots of boats priced astronomically, only to sell for 40%, 50%, 75% below original advertised price.
2nd question: Were those boats above moored at the brokers docks?!? Meaning, if the broker had a vested interest in "for sale" boats staying there so he was collecting moorage monthly from the sellers . . . .

3rd question: Not sure if it applies to boat brokers, but in real estate, unless there is a written agreement, signed by the seller stating something like "do not waste my time by presenting offers to me that don't meet the following conditions (price, closing, inspection, etc)", than a real estate agent is generally REQUIRED BY LAW to present a valid offer to the seller. By valid offer, I mean one that is in WRITING, with EARNEST MONEY, etc. Just BS'ing with the broker, asking "would the seller take XX$$?" doesn't constitute a valid offer, it is just fishing for a new $$ number to start negotiations from IMHO.
My personal experience with brokers hasn't been favorable to brokers in general . . . but maybe I've just been unlucky to attempt to work with the dregs, selling absolutely low end, junk boats . . . you know, those in the $100k to $200k range . . . real junk boats! . . .

[sailingharry]

BlueH2Obound, your third question was about presenting offers. I was going to put in an offer of $110K on a boat listed for $160K (I think). This "offer" was in the form of a detailed email to the broker on how I wanted the P&S to be filled out. But, it was not a "valid offer" in your terms, as it was not on a formal P&S, not signed, and there was no earnest money. He talked me out of submitting, saying the seller wasn't all that motivated, and they would just continue using the boat, and this lowball offer would only sour future negotiations, and so on. Perhaps I was wrong to not insist, but I think in the end the one we bought was a better value and meets our needs better, so "karma" or some such? BTW, nearly 2 years later, the Yachtworld listing shows "under contract" and the list price is $135K. So the agreement may well be close to our offer 2 years ago.


I think that as far as "legally required," boat brokers work in the wild wild west. No licensing (pretty sure, anyway), no regulation.

[BBill]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

BlueH2Obound, your third question was about presenting offers. I was going to put in an offer of $110K on a boat listed for $160K (I think). This "offer" was in the form of a detailed email to the broker on how I wanted the P&S to be filled out. But, it was not a "valid offer" in your terms, as it was not on a formal P&S, not signed, and there was no earnest money. He talked me out of submitting, saying the seller wasn't all that motivated, and they would just continue using the boat, and this lowball offer would only sour future negotiations, and so on. Perhaps I was wrong to not insist, but I think in the end the one we bought was a better value and meets our needs better, so "karma" or some such? BTW, nearly 2 years later, the Yachtworld listing shows "under contract" and the list price is $135K. So the agreement may well be close to our offer 2 years ago.


I think that as far as "legally required," boat brokers work in the wild wild west. No licensing (pretty sure, anyway), no regulation.

From what I read on the Florida Dept of Professional Regulation site, boat brokers and the salesmen under them are licensed and pay a fee to get the license and bond. There isn't much else in the regs. Real estate agents are held under massive law restrictions in comparison.

[ohdrinkboy]

I was browsing YW the other day looking at a Bayfield. The description says "this Bayfield 36 is the perfect combination of cruiser and racer." Instills all sorts of confidence in the broker for me (queue the sarcasm meter).

[MicHughV]

Buying a used boat these days feels just like looking at cars on a used car lot. I've been buying cars for over 40 years now and I every time I set my foot onto a used car lot I start to get the heeby jeebies the second a salesperson slides up to me and starts peppering me with scripted questions trying to gauge me and my wallet..

[MicHughV]

...every car salesman in the world always offers the " you look good in that car" schpiel, makes me want to barf....sales people come from a different genre of mankind that is a for sure thing...

[Sand crab]

Florida and California are the only ones that have laws regarding yacht brokers. I have read the Florida law and it mostly deals with licensing and escrow funds. The YBAA does state that a broker will submit all offers. I assume this means a written contract and deposit.

[BBill]

I think the YBAA is like the Realtor organization. They subscribe to rules of conduct and can kick you out of the organization if you don't follow...but have no legal stance on license or law enforcement. I learned a long time ago that the worst brokers typically work outside of the Realtor org. Might be the same with yacht brokers but I don't know.