Windows vs Linux vs MacOS vs Others

[wsmac]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

FYI Mac OS is bsd Unix under the covers so if something works under bsd then it can work under Mac OS. Full disclosure I've never installed opencpn on anything.

Thanks... I was aware of that already, but it is still relevant for the conversation here.
While typing my loooooooong thesis... sometimes my mind starts to drift (not unlike the people who make a valiant effort to read the whole thing) and I don't include everything I probably should... if I know it, that is...

[wsmac]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Hmmm I've been in it for decades and never had that particular experience. Oh you meant old computers not old computer guys. Never mind.

Now... full disclosure... magnets can attract AND repel... so....
Not saying they're trying to beat my door down... but sometimes late at night... as I drift off to dreamland....

[CarinaPDX]

It seems to me the best choice of OS is the one you know, as long as you are happy with it. The effort to change is quite substantial, unless you are only using the common desktop apps. For those of us with a geek streak having multiple OSes, either multi-booted or in virtual machines, a lot more time is necessary - which is fine if it is your hobby, not if you just want a working tool.

If you were starting from absolute scratch then I would recommend Linux Mint as a beginner desktop, with WINE for apps that need Windows system support. The knowledge gained may be useful if you want to use Raspberry Pi's for instrumentation or charts. Your investment should be good for a long time as Linux maintains support for older hardware, with security updates and new features. For desktop apps this is an easy choice. As your appetite for apps goes further afield the overhead involved in getting them working can go up dramatically, but this is a function of the learning curve so it improves with time. Sometimes getting good drivers for some hardware can be difficult or even impossible so careful research before purchase is part of the bargain.

The MacOS is, and has been for decades, the easiest OS to learn and become productive. For 15 years or so it has been based on BSD Unix, so has easy access to a lot of geek stuff if you want to move in that direction. The bad news is that it retains (or has even expanded) its premium pricing gap from other hardware. The hardware itself is, from a user-interaction POV, the very best (case, display, keyboard, trackpad, etc). From a pure compute power it is mediocre, which is only of interest if 3D graphics or video editing (or possibly photo editing) is your interest - unless you are a gamer but in that case buy a PS4 and be done with it. Apple is making it harder for skilled users to access things but it is there with a little work. Perhaps the greatest problem is that the hardware is essentially sealed and allows for no after-sales upgrades (even battery changes are very difficult) - Apple expects you to replace it every 5 years, and helps you with that decision by discontinuing support, including the crucial security updates, at that time. So if you are willing to pay a lot more for a premium product and replace it every 5 years the Mac may be for you. After more than 30 years with Macs I am switching to Linux...

Windows 10 is what it is: a jerry-built mess that gets the job done. M$ has a talent for breaking things with new updates, which often require an internet search to find a fix. The good news is that almost anything you want done has a Windows app for it, and too often it is the only app. The bad news is that M$ has taken control from the user: updates WILL happen, and on their schedule. M$ is uploading your data at a prodigious rate for them to analyze, which takes Herculean efforts to curtail. (N.B. the current Win 10 update gives you a chance to change privacy settings at the time of install - do it then or suffer the consequences.) And they are sending ads to your machine for your viewing pleasure - or not. Who owns your machine???

Your choice.

Greg

[Seas the Day]

Originally Posted by zboss

Why bother choosing? I have a MacBook Air and run macOS, windows, and Linux simultaneously. You can even use a windows app right on the macOS desktop.

Same here, my Mac runs all windows applications and is much more solid that windows. First define what you want to run then set up a spreadsheet by app vs OS to determine the gaps.

[weavis]

I run windows with linux as dual boot.
8.1 and 10.

Never had to use linux..
Its there just in case.

[250224]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

M$ has a talent

This $ immediately disqualifies you for some from a rational discourse... (just to let you know) -

A not yet mentioned aspect is power-efficiency in case you should use a labtop. Windows and Macs are much better than Linux. From experience with a relative old labtop (Lenovo, don't remember exact model) and Lubuntu I'd never do that again. Consumed much more power than a newer even cheap labtop.

Currently I use a MacBook Air. For a dedicated bord computer I'd probably go with a Windows 10 computer for flexibility (there are privacy issues, but they can be solved).

[GrowleyMonster]

When Windows 8 came out I thought it was the biggest piece of crap ever invented. I had tried Linux several times over the years and found it a little too geeky for me, but I had been hearing good things about Ubuntu so the new laptop I bought with Win 8 on it, was reborn as a Ubuntu machine. I had difficulty getting dual boot (actually it seemed more like "duel" boot!) to work so I just got rid of windows altogether. And I never looked back. Installation was dead easy... no more compiling kernels and other geeky stuff required. Updates are simple. REALLY simple. And they work. There isn't much antivirus software available. But that's because it isn't really needed! It is a very secure system, with the default settings. OpenCPN runs great on it. My most recent computer purchase, a Dell, surprised me when I installed Ubuntu. It supports the touch screen! Take THAT, WinDOHs!

Ubuntu probably has the biggest app repository and biggest peer support group. Mint is close, and has a more windows-y feel, so you might prefer it over Ubuntu.

The Linux Terminal is a hugely powerful interface, and can get stuff done way faster than the GUI, so after getting used to the GUI you definitely should familiarize with terminal. It seems a little geeky at first, but once you "get it", you will love it. If you never do, you can live without it.

Don't forget about Android. OCPN runs on that platform, too, and most Android tablets, phablets, and phones have their own built in GPS. A rooted Android with a nice big MicroSD card is not just a phone that can do a few stupid tricks, like an i-thing. It is a very small computer, that just happens to be able to make phone calls. My androids all run CyanogenMod instead of stock Android. With a dedicated solar charger, it makes the perfect fully redundant backup electronic navigation system.

Windows can do the job, but IMHO Ubuntu can do it better and more securely and while you can indeed run most winDOHs apps on a Linux box, there is generally no need to do so. I haven't used Wine or VMware in a couple of years now. Linux does it all, for me.

[wsmac]

Apparently my image for this quote, "Me... I'll stick with my TIMEX Sinclair 1000 and Commodore 64... they've been very very good to me all these years so why change anything? PLUS... as you can see... THEY'RE BABE MAGNETS! (with all due respect to women, of course!)" was removed because it was deemed too risqué... so I was hoping to substitute a more 'family appropriate' image...
Sorry about the faux paus!
I'll try and not let it happen again... I'm still learning here...

[out42]

I started off with a Netbook (remember those?) in 2010 and when it began to fail with Windows, I turned over to Ubuntu. I now only use Ubuntu, OpenCpn and an NMEA feed from the Raymarine stuff on board through a WiFi multiplexer. Charting is excellent, configurability easy and it just doesn't hang.

I would suggest setting up on a machine at home first using one of the Long term Stable (LTS) variants of Ubuntu and getting familiar with it there. Once you've got it all working, you won't bother with Windows again. MacOs, I don't know anything about.

[Sailor_Hutch]

Originally Posted by QBF

You might want to take what that developer said with a grain of salt...

I own an eight year old Sony laptop and run Linux without any "Old Hardware" glitches. Windows 7 also runs in a virtual machine with no problems.

Agree with that sentiment. The Linux kernel hasn't gotten terribly inefficient, but the ton of cruft the average distro adds on top of it is the thing that's cause for older hardware to be overly laden. A light distribution (e.g. Alpine, Arch, etc) coupled with a minimal desktop still works on fairly old laptops. Probably this is true of Windows as well. Take away the flashy stuff piled on top of the kernel, and it'd be OK on old computers. But, I think a person is going to be at least slightly techy to go the Linux route. However; most sailors are pretty handy at being techy when they need to be ...

[barnakiel]

We have both 8 (8.1) and 10 (Pro) machines here and from this perspective I cannot confirm 8 is or was a bad system. In fact, quite contrary, 8.1 is way faster, easier to work with and less troublesome than Windows 10.

My all time fave windows is XP. All subsequent versions were just fakes and mods aimed at making you buy something "newer =???better???". Anything I can do on our newest machine I can do with an 8 years old Asus Eee with XP - but the Asus machine has a dead battery and an ailing wifi card, hence need for new machines. It IS in the hardware NOT in the software.

Just how I use our machines here. Ymmv.

Cheers,
b.

[Pizzazz]

It is a challenge to choose the right computing environment on a boat. Many of the traditional sailor's apps such as RMS Express for HF radio, ham programs and the Raytech navigator (display Raymarine radar) work better with older versions of Windows. On the other hand, staying with the older versions does not help with new features such as touch screens, fast USB support, etc. My advice would be to stay with Windows 7, a trackball and a set of apps that meets your needs.

[Invictus69]

Thanks for all the feedback - I should have clarified that I have been mainly MS-DOS/Windows user all my life but peaking with Win7 I started to dislike any new version and I have been increasingly more fan for Linux especially that in recent years most of the distros became much more sophisticated and fully functional for non-tech user. Not to mention the speed on the same specs machine vs Windows. (45 sec startup, 7 sec shutdown)

From practical point, I agree that having Windows is a necessity so dual-boot or a VM should be the way to go.

I see from some responses that even the boat electronics charts and instruments can be connected to a linux pc but was wondering if the availability of apps / drivers for instruments and communication etc are broadly available.

Cheers!

[jsc7]

On any kind of critical system (boat, aircraft, spacecraft, etc) you want to use Linux because it is much more stable and reliable. You can run Linux continuously for long periods of time without human intervention. Also, when you need to modify the system, you can do that live, without shutting it down or rebooting it. With both Windows and Macs you have to be constantly turning them off and on and rebooting them. Windows is constantly coming out with "security patches", all of which require cold restarts.

Another issue is power usage. Windows and to a lesser extent Macs are power hogs that burn CPU often in ways that the user has no control over. If you have ever had a Dell Windows laptop, you know how hot it gets, just sitting there, even when you are not using it. In Linux you have tight control over which processes are running and how much they run. This allows you to configure Linux to not be burning up the CPU.

A third reason for preferring Linux is that it is more friendly to remote control and automation. You can fully control Linux systems remotely from just the command line. With Windows or Mac, you need a full remote desktop. Checking into a remote Linux system is a 15 second process. With Windows you will be sitting there for 2 minutes waiting for the remote desktop to boot up. Also, you can schedule any process in Linux simply and easily using chron and bash scripts. Trying to automate activities in Windows and Macs is much more complicated.

[barnakiel]

I noticed the complete opposite to be the case. I did not find Linux more stable. And when I tried Linux it was as much a power hog on the resources as Windows is and in fact yet a bit more. Or else why was the same machine now SLOWER?

The user does not have to touch anything on a Windows machine to tune down the processor and power usage. As I am writing this the machine's processor (1,6 Ghz) is happily ticking at bare 0,56 Ghz. and when I click 'send' it will momentarily jump to about 0,8 Ghz then fall back again. ZERO user's intervention.

True. Some Linux may be the best tool for some servers - but this is so because it is optimized for just that. In everyday use of a small onboard machine, Windows kills Linux hands down for any typical user. I bet MacOs does so as well.

If it were otherwise and Linux were such a great tool for a small device (laptop, netbook, convertible, tablet) then people would be using Linux, not Windows, MacOs, and Android.

My experience with Linux is limited. Still, a great disillusionment. I only use it today because some of the development tools require compiling and building Linux based blocks on a Linux machine. Otherwise, for everyday use onboard I think only a Linux proficient insider should use Linux on their machine.

I started writing lines of code on Atari, I graduated to Windows and Unix, meanwhile I tried Linux maybe a dozen times during 20 years or so. Every time: big promises but no delivery. Shame, really.

And let's not forget social support. I can easily find answers for why something goes wrong on my Windows or Android machine. Try asking a question at a Linux forum: you will hear things I have heard: "you question is not correctly asked" or "this question has been already answered" or "open the terminal window and try typing ..." etc. etc. etc.

I do not want to be pushed around by halfwit self proclaimed Linux gurus. I want my netbooks and tablets to do what I ask them to do. Arguments from "authority"? No, thanks.

I will agree Linux may/is the tool of choice for server applications managed by pro admins but for a typical user of a small machine it is a DISASTER.

Yes. It will do 100% (or so) of what you want to do. Any other system will. Just make sure you are very familiar with this system up front. If you are not, chose a system you are familiar with.

Cheers,
b.