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Old 09-09-2021, 09:10   #46
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Re: Wind Instrument

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Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
In your original post you asked for advice. Here are my thoughts:
1) Sailing at night without a compass light sounds like a really bad idea..
Agreed. This has moved to the top of my repair list.
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2) Heaving to would have given you time to wake up your crew to help with hand steering and given you time to figure out what's wrong..
In hindsight it would have been better to heave to - only for the purpose of avoiding disorientation. Otherwise no reason compared to sailing on. I was looking at the still functioning plotter and didn't expect it to misrepresent heading.

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3) I don't know how many devices you have on your N2K bus, but it shouldn't take 2 days to figure out the problem by disconnecting them one by one. I assume you have a multi meter on board. If you don't, you should get one..
I have 20 plus devices and the fault was intermittent. It's a lot of connecting and disconnecting and then waiting for the fault to occur again.

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4) A red LED flashlight, or even better, a red head lamp in the cockpit can come in very useful in a situation like this..
Well, obviously. And I did have such, and subsequently steered by holding this the the compass.

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Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
5) Your N2K instrument network went down due to a masthead short, but electrical problems can happen with any network. N2K is based on DeviceNet, a very reliable standard for industrial applications. NMEA0183 can short out just as easily. Your autopilot could go out for other reasons too (they are notorious for being unreliable and many people carry complete spares.) So you need to think through a contingency plan for a situation like this.
Sure. I have a few decades of experience and it's not the first time I've had a pilot go down. Contingency like with almost everyone is to hand steer.

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6) If you are not racing, the ultimate accuracy in a wind instrument is probably not terribly useful. When looking for a replacement, focus on reliability instead. As a rule, with each component you add potential points of failure and decreased reliability.
Here I strongly disagree. First of all, we do race, and with success. But even cruising, we sail keenly and need accurate true wind. So far from downgrading the wind sensor, I'm planning on the contrary to upgrade it, possibly to the B&G racing system with H5000 computer.
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Old 09-09-2021, 09:20   #47
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Re: Wind Instrument

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
This depends on the nature of the fault. A short on the power side of the ITC5 would disable the whole NMEA 2000 network (unless you have a divided power supply). The effects of a fault on the data side will depend on the nature of the fault. In most, but not all cases this would only disable the wind instrument. All the above is also true for a pure NMEA 2000 network without the ITC5. I am struggling to see any practical difference other than the ITC5 introduces another complex piece of electronics, and user reports suggest these protocol conversion devices are not particularly reliable.
Today's pilots use 10Hz transfer rates for wind, heading (Gyrocompas) and COG / SOG data. Those transfer rates have improved the performance of new pilots.

It is impossible to put all this data on a slow bus like NMEA0183 only with a multiplexer. That is one more reason why a gateway is also needed to transfer them to a fast bus like N2k, when the transducer does not transmit directly on that bus. (Also towards WiFi and Ethernet).
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Old 09-09-2021, 09:29   #48
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Re: Wind Instrument

For those considering multiple n2k networks with bridges/routers interconnecting them: start by looking at the bridge from Yacht Devices. It actually allows you to program it. I don’t mean “configure” but actually program using a C-like programming language.

Next thing is to create a core AP network. Put in the following n2k sensors and devices:

- rudder angle sensor -> b&g rf25n
- AP computer -> b&g nac-3
- AP control head -> b&g triton display + triton keypad
- heading sensor + accelerometers (rate gyro) -> airmar h2183 or maretron ssc-300
- GNSS position sensor -> garmin gps19x
- water depth/speed/temperature -> airmar dst-810
- wind -> b&g ws-310

This will enable every feature of the AP. Now think very carefully about each of these components, as they are all crucial. Does the gnss sensor support all of gps and glonass and galileo? Does it support augmentation from waas, galileo? My Garmin gps19x is probably one of the best choices, but I needed a Garmin plotter to enable glonass support!

Next, how important is that sensor to you? Do you want a spare? I recommend to use a custom double pole power switch in a drop able to two heading sensors. I use two different brands, each highly regarded, switch one on and keep the other off to isolate it from transient surges on the power lines in the network.

Now you can build the second nmea2000 network. It will have plotters, ais, etc. You can program the bridge to forward all from the AP network to the 2nd network, but keep much of the data on the other network (ais for sure) away from the ap network.

Consider mini cabling for the backbone instead of micro.

These points above have kept me entertained for years, enjoy
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Old 09-09-2021, 09:44   #49
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Re: Wind Instrument

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Here I strongly disagree. First of all, we do race, and with success. But even cruising, we sail keenly and need accurate true wind. So far from downgrading the wind sensor, I'm planning on the contrary to upgrade it, possibly to the B&G racing system with H5000 computer.
I'm sorry to tell you that with the H5000 you could have the same problem, because the wind sensor is connected to the main N2k cable. See page 11 of the installation manual:
http://marinebox.com/shop-pro/bg/H50...-Manual-EN.pdf

H5000 is very beautiful and very very expensive. B&G has done an excellent job of marketing ... Personally I only find it useful for the precise calculation of the wind when the boat rolls, pitch and with rotating masts. All other data for a regatta can be obtained with much cheaper apps (iregatta for example).
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 09-09-2021, 09:47   #50
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Re: Wind Instrument

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I haven't read the standard, but of the 20+ devices on my N2K network, to my knowledge only the radar, pilot computer, and the AIS have separate power supplies. All the rest of them are powered by the common power supply. You short that out somewhere -- which is what happened to me -- and the whole net goes down.
Just an FYI, My B&G Hercules system (not H5000) has a similar problem. The mast cable developed a worn spot where it crosses the spreader bar and intermittently shorted against the aluminum mast, which took the CPU and everything else off line. I eventually had to replace the cable and install protection against chafe at the wear points.

I've had a few other odd problems which caused the Hercules system to go down so I am glad that my autopilot, plotter and depth sounders (two) are independent devices. I don't use the B&G autopilot software or depth. Of course this means I cannot use TWD for autopilot, but we don't use the autopilot while sailing, we use the windvane.

I've collected the gear to upgrade my entire system but I've been putting it off. Maybe I'll get it installed this fall, but I think I'll maintain the independence of the critical external units.

PS I have 5 operable compasses on deck including three magnetic, all lighted, so I am covered there.
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Old 09-09-2021, 09:55   #51
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Re: Wind Instrument

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Originally Posted by Tehani View Post
The NMEA0183 standard is not really a network, its usual topology is a single talker and one or more listeners in a single direction of the data (simplex).

Even using a multiplexer, where all the sentences of several talkers are concentrated, if a talker line is short-circuited it does not affect the rest of the devices.

If we analyze this case, being the same problem in the mast, it does not affect the same in a N2k network as in a "one to one" line using NMEA0183.

You still need power to each of the devices. While technically power is not part of NMEA 0183, you still need the same number of wires that can short out. Also, if you are combining NMEA 0183 device with N2K, you need a bridge and/or multiplexer, introducing one or more points of failure.
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Old 09-09-2021, 10:08   #52
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Re: Wind Instrument

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
For those considering multiple n2k networks with bridges/routers interconnecting them: start by looking at the bridge from Yacht Devices. It actually allows you to program it. I don’t mean “configure” but actually program using a C-like programming language.

Next thing is to create a core AP network. Put in the following n2k sensors and devices:

- rudder angle sensor -> b&g rf25n
- AP computer -> b&g nac-3
- AP control head -> b&g triton display + triton keypad
- heading sensor + accelerometers (rate gyro) -> airmar h2183 or maretron ssc-300
- GNSS position sensor -> garmin gps19x
- water depth/speed/temperature -> airmar dst-810
- wind -> b&g ws-310

This will enable every feature of the AP. Now think very carefully about each of these components, as they are all crucial. Does the gnss sensor support all of gps and glonass and galileo? Does it support augmentation from waas, galileo? My Garmin gps19x is probably one of the best choices, but I needed a Garmin plotter to enable glonass support!

Next, how important is that sensor to you? Do you want a spare? I recommend to use a custom double pole power switch in a drop able to two heading sensors. I use two different brands, each highly regarded, switch one on and keep the other off to isolate it from transient surges on the power lines in the network.

Now you can build the second nmea2000 network. It will have plotters, ais, etc. You can program the bridge to forward all from the AP network to the 2nd network, but keep much of the data on the other network (ais for sure) away from the ap network.

Consider mini cabling for the backbone instead of micro.

These points above have kept me entertained for years, enjoy
Interesting Jedi contribution.

GPS + Navigator data, depth, temperature and wind are not vital in an emergency situation. At least I think so.

The current GNSS receive signals from several satellite constellations (GPS, Glonass, Beydou, Galileo ...) and all use the WAAS system for data enhancement. The output data does not differ from that of a conventional GPS. You can use a GNSS receiver with OpenCPN, it is not necessary to buy a specific plotter.

The problem with these new GNSS is that, in addition to sending position, date, time, COG, SOG and some also declination, they also send a lot of "useless" data such as signal strength, azimuth and elevation of ALL satellites in sight .

I have developed a gateway that can receive data from several GPS / GNSS and analyze which of them is sending the best quality data at all times (HDOP), switching automatically. So there is no problem using several at the same time, and there is always one for safety.
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Old 09-09-2021, 10:28   #53
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Re: Wind Instrument

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Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
You still need power to each of the devices. While technically power is not part of NMEA 0183, you still need the same number of wires that can short out. Also, if you are combining NMEA 0183 device with N2K, you need a bridge and/or multiplexer, introducing one or more points of failure.
Please analyze my previous comments.

I continue with the H5000:
This device has two NMEA0183 channels and 2 differential analog inputs, in addition to N2k. That is, the CV7 Ultrasonic Wind Sensor can be preserved using NMEA0183.

But I do not see that it is neither more nor less than a gateway with some added mathematical calculations. Those same calculations are carried out by an app of the current ones on a tablet.
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Old 09-09-2021, 10:37   #54
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Re: Wind Instrument

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Originally Posted by Tehani View Post
Please analyze my previous comments.



I continue with the H5000:

This device has two NMEA0183 channels and 2 differential analog inputs, in addition to N2k. That is, the CV7 Ultrasonic Wind Sensor can be preserved using NMEA0183.



But I do not see that it is neither more nor less than a gateway with some added mathematical calculations. Those same calculations are carried out by an app of the current ones on a tablet.
Well, it's not a "gateway". It is the source of true wind and corrected STW data on the network. If you can do similar calculations on a tablet (?), I don't think you can push those calculations back into the network, can you?
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Old 09-09-2021, 11:19   #55
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Re: Wind Instrument

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Interesting Jedi contribution.

GPS + Navigator data, depth, temperature and wind are not vital in an emergency situation. At least I think so.

The current GNSS receive signals from several satellite constellations (GPS, Glonass, Beydou, Galileo ...) and all use the WAAS system for data enhancement. The output data does not differ from that of a conventional GPS. You can use a GNSS receiver with OpenCPN, it is not necessary to buy a specific plotter.

The problem with these new GNSS is that, in addition to sending position, date, time, COG, SOG and some also declination, they also send a lot of "useless" data such as signal strength, azimuth and elevation of ALL satellites in sight .

I have developed a gateway that can receive data from several GPS / GNSS and analyze which of them is sending the best quality data at all times (HDOP), switching automatically. So there is no problem using several at the same time, and there is always one for safety.
Depth, position, wind (direction) are all crucial data in emergency situations.

I don’t get where “emergency situations “ come from… I described an Autopilot network that integrates with a second network. I guess you call that AP network an “emergency network”?

Look at it as a core data and control network, with the 2nd network as a “nice to have” network. That 2nd network also needs gnss but maybe use one of those new units that combine heading and attitude with position, or just use a chart plotter internal sensor etc.

I was trying to explain that it’s important that your gnss sensor supports all of gps, glonass and galileo, not just gps. The new units have 72 channels or more and are very capable in combining data from constellations and augmentation for best quality position data.

For multiple gnss, heading sensors: many good units allow data source selection, but not everything. It’s very annoying to see a heading line flip flop when it’s using multiple sensors.
But that isn’t the important reason for switching them off. When you use a double pole switch, which breaks both positive and negative power conductors in the nmea2000 drop cable, you isolate the sensor from surges (the data lines are opto isolated). We have had extensive thunderstorm damage, loosing $700 heading sensors, autopilots, gateways etc. Analysis by Maretron showed the surge coming in through the power conductors.
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Old 09-09-2021, 12:03   #56
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Re: Wind Instrument

I feel your pain. I had a short in the barometer sensor sporadically take down the entire B&G network on a delivery and it took two days to find it, isolate it, and get back basic instrumentation and navigation.

This week's delivery on a raceboat with B&G which had no knotmeter input. Without it all the fancy true wind angle and direction was crap. I was on a tight weather window, so just went by the seat of the pants wind. I tried looking at the B&G manuals to see if I could substitute SOG as an input into the wind calculation, but had no luck.

In an earlier iteration, this boat had an older B&G system, and we spent almost a year trying to fix an intermittent MHU issue (even ran an external cable down the mast). The whole instrument package has been "upgraded", to where it took me a hour to discover the secret of adjusting the display brightness, but the MHU problem is gone.

I always wear an LED headlight on night watch.
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Old 09-09-2021, 13:27   #57
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Re: Wind Instrument

Some gateways perform these calculations to extract TWS, TWA, set and drift and many others, from HDG, COG / SOG, STW, magnetic variation, etc. They are simple trigonometric calculations and there are specific sentences standardized by NMEA to transmit over the N0183, N2k and WiFi networks.

Obviously, tablet apps only calculate this data for their own use and presentation, since most can only receive data, not send it.

With reference to an emergency situation related to the pilot, it is necessary to emphasize that the only things the pilot needs to run is the heading, keypad, and the rudder sensor in not all cases. Mr. Dockhead would have had no problem going to warn the crew if these items had worked.

Jedi: Heading sensors (HDG, compass and gyros) and vanes do not report data quality, and a GPS / GNSS does. So in this case it is possible and proven, that a software switch can be performed without significant alterations neither in the position nor in COG / SOG. Today's receivers provide 5 decimal digits of resolution in minutes, which is equal to 1.8cm (less than 1 inch).

Currently, sometimes situations arise where more than one GPS / GNSS receiver is sending data to the N2k network, because some AIS also send that information and it is not possible to deactivate it (I will not say brands ...). That does produce continuous jumps of the boat on the display ...

And indeed, when we are in an electrical storm, a spark can sneak into the electronics and burn it all, even if it is disconnected a few millimeters from the power supply (mechanical switch). In those cases, there is no solution.
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Old 10-09-2021, 06:32   #58
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Re: Wind Instrument

I think one of the things this discussion is bringing forward is the need to have sufficient robust instrumentation that is independent of the N2K system such to allow the boat to be navigated when the N2K system goes down.
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Old 10-09-2021, 06:52   #59
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Re: Wind Instrument

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Some gateways perform these calculations to extract TWS, TWA, set and drift and many others, from HDG, COG / SOG, STW, magnetic variation, etc. They are simple trigonometric calculations and there are specific sentences standardized by NMEA to transmit over the N0183, N2k and WiFi networks.

Obviously, tablet apps only calculate this data for their own use and presentation, since most can only receive data, not send it.

With reference to an emergency situation related to the pilot, it is necessary to emphasize that the only things the pilot needs to run is the heading, keypad, and the rudder sensor in not all cases. Mr. Dockhead would have had no problem going to warn the crew if these items had worked.

Jedi: Heading sensors (HDG, compass and gyros) and vanes do not report data quality, and a GPS / GNSS does. So in this case it is possible and proven, that a software switch can be performed without significant alterations neither in the position nor in COG / SOG. Today's receivers provide 5 decimal digits of resolution in minutes, which is equal to 1.8cm (less than 1 inch).

Currently, sometimes situations arise where more than one GPS / GNSS receiver is sending data to the N2k network, because some AIS also send that information and it is not possible to deactivate it (I will not say brands ...). That does produce continuous jumps of the boat on the display ...

And indeed, when we are in an electrical storm, a spark can sneak into the electronics and burn it all, even if it is disconnected a few millimeters from the power supply (mechanical switch). In those cases, there is no solution.
We must be mis-communicating. When you want your AP to steer a compass course, you must have a heading sensor. When you want the AP to steer to a wind angle, you need the masthead wind sensor. When you want your AP to steer a COG line then you need a GNSS sensor.

You do not get data from multiple sensors, like positioning from an AIS transponder, when you keep that on a separate network like I described before.

Many AP’s can also steer to a depth contour, for which the depth sensor is required. When a triducer is used you also get temperature which provides important data when dealing with ocean currents like the Gulf Stream around Florida.

Modern GNSS sensors for boats can be trusted to provide positioning data accurate to 10’ or 3 meters. That is 300cm so much less accurate than the 1.8cm that you seem to think you get. You may get the resolution for the decimals but that does not mean you get that precision.
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Old 10-09-2021, 09:43   #60
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Re: Wind Instrument

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We must be mis-communicating. When you want your AP to steer a compass course, you must have a heading sensor. When you want the AP to steer to a wind angle, you need the masthead wind sensor. When you want your AP to steer a COG line then you need a GNSS sensor.
Surely we are not understanding each other.

Of course, an AP can work in NAV / TRACK mode if it receives waypoint or route data from a navigator, also in NO DRIFT if it correctly receives the COG, in WIND if it receives wind data ...
But it will not be able to function in any of the above modes if it is not receiving Heading as well. This information is basic for any pilot.

All modes are used to correct the internal reference heading "in the background" as time passes. Only the reading of the current heading, and currently also the attitude, allow the AP to react quickly to a yaw, in addition to serving as a base reference.

APs apply PID calculations on heading variations at all times, and cannot do without it. On the other hand, they can dispense with all the other data.
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