WIFI offshore part two

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by shimari

https://seabits.com/mikrotik-groove-...p-setup-guide/
n.b. I don't agree with Steve's characterization that the Mikrotik Groove is a booster.

Good luck!

i bought the MicroTik Groove and mirrored what was done on seabits. I was never very successful getting it running. I tried for several months. the Marina I was at had a captive portal that was definitely not compatible, or at least beyond my networking admin knowledge. after arriving in Virginia I tried again but could not get it to work correctly at all. it finally bricked itself on my effort to update the firmware, and i ended up tossing it. very frustrating

in reflecting, I'm sure part of this was my attempts to make it work with the previous captive portal network. although that should not have been an issue when i got to Virginia ands reset it. however i feel the unit was designed more for a pro or corporate user, and not user friendly enough for the likes of us regular mortals. I'm decent with computers and and will freely admit i have some holes in my knowledge/skills with networks. but i have a dual boot linux system, have set up network databases and samba/NAS, email and web servers ect which can sometimes likewise be painful and frustrating. however I felt the MicroTik was far more frustrating and difficult that it should have been, the lack of user-friendliness is not what you want for regular usage.

my tolerance for some of this type of stuff is higher than most, however when it comes to things like your internet connection in this day and age, this type of thing shouldn't be based on what i can do, but what the crew can do while your gone. if its too complicated they will make your life unhappy, or may try to fix things on their own and break things worse. if you need a connection for something essential like work than making things as user friendly and reliable as possible is in your best interest. unfortunately that's the equipment that costs more.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by alaskanviking

my tolerance for some of this type of stuff is higher than most, however when it comes to things like your internet connection in this day and age, this type of thing shouldn't be based on what i can do, but what the crew can do while your gone. if its too complicated they will make your life unhappy, or may try to fix things on their own and break things worse. if you need a connection for something essential like work than making things as user friendly and reliable as possible is in your best interest. unfortunately that's the equipment that costs more.

I've worked with the raw units as well as the packaged marine systems. For sure the configuration and use of the raw devices are daunting. But in the packaged systems like those from Island Time and Bitstorm, they have installed a friendlier and more streamlined firmware that greatly simplifies the setup and daily use of these systems. For this, they charge a bit more than US$100 over the price of the hardware alone. Unless you're a wifi system nerd, the savings from not having to gather up all the parts yourself, and not spending hours puzzling over the setup (or paying someone else to do so) are worth the package price. IMHO.

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by alaskanviking

i bought the MicroTik Groove and mirrored what was done on seabits. I was never very successful getting it running. I tried for several months. the Marina I was at had a captive portal that was definitely not compatible, or at least beyond my networking admin knowledge. after arriving in Virginia I tried again but could not get it to work correctly at all. it finally bricked itself on my effort to update the firmware, and i ended up tossing it. very frustrating

clip....

Bob Stewart at Island Time PC is the king of customer service.

My experience with him started over 15 years ago, when he sorted a thorny problem with some gear that a rep promised would work without any issues. It didn't, but he pointed me in the right direction, and when he came out with his solution I mentioned above, it was plug-and-play.

If you're entirely up on network stuff, you can work through it. If you already own one, he'll sell you a configuration package which will make it effortless. See that here: https://www.islandtimepc.com/configurations-diy

If you don't yet own one, buy his package, and install it. Ours uses an aluminum ell bar to allow full separation of the WiFi from the VHF antennas, and we have it atop our mast, but off an arch, or a spreader or similar is adequate; he also sells various mounting packages, from pole to backstay to surface to flat-to-mast (similar to the typical VHF whip mounts).

You can see our predecessor, a NEMA box with a card and tiny pigtail in it
to the antenna and lightning protector, in our gallery, linked here:

Pictures: Flying Pig 2009 Refit /Repairs_And_Upgrades/Electronics

About halfway down that page will be pix (sorry about all the other stuff
going on at the same time) of our upgrade from a Ubiquiti board to the
Ubiquiti Bullet, initially in the same NEMA box, then on the bracket.

Then, further on will be the actual installation at the mast top.

You can get all that (not the ell; that came from a scrap pile at a metals fabricator) from https://www.islandtimepc.com/ - the home page tells of support for your already-owned gear, or systems at the menu bar at the top...

Want to communicate directly? rstewart@islandtimepc.com. Tell him I said hello No connection other than insanely satisfied customer; he's made the last 3 computers I have aboard, too...

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Do you see gigabit speeds on mobile phone connections?


Don't know about the U.S., but mobile phone connections in Europe are all throttled. My provider's plans are all unlimited data (no fair use) but with different degrees of throttling. When roaming, there is usually more throttling, and sometimes a lot. So I would not personally have any problem with a cat 4 router. All the more since the time I really need the router is with weak signals. When I have a strong signal, I just use my phone.

All data comms uses throttling , both Wi-Fi and cellular as back hauls are based on probability traffic levels rather then peak

There no deliberate specific throttling of cellular per se , outside of plans where it’s explicitly stated , it’s always a function of infrastructure and backhaul capacity.

[bcboomer]

Originally Posted by alaskanviking

i bought the MicroTik Groove and mirrored what was done on seabits. I was never very successful getting it running. I tried for several months. the Marina I was at had a captive portal that was definitely not compatible, or at least beyond my networking admin knowledge. after arriving in Virginia I tried again but could not get it to work correctly at all. it finally bricked itself on my effort to update the firmware, and i ended up tossing it. very frustrating

This is why Island Time is so good. You might pay a little more than shopping around for components but he guides you through the whole process. Plus, he takes care of any warranty issues and updates.

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by bcboomer

This is why Island Time is so good. You might pay a little more than shopping around for components but he guides you through the whole process. Plus, he takes care of any warranty issues and updates.

What he said

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by skipgundlach

I want to talk a bit about ethics. Early on in the days of wifi, there were lots of discussions about “stealing signals” – using someone else’ Internet service provider, essentially, because if you signed on to someone else’ account, you were using their service. In addition to the ethics of that, the concern was that if many were using the service, bandwidth would suffer. I’m going to address the bandwidth issue later, as it’s very significant here in the Harbour, but for now, we’ll talk about ethics and open sites.

As time went on, knowledgeable folks frequently left their routers – the thing connected to the ISP – open intentionally. I’ve even got another buddy who built a “cantenna” – a home-made, very high gain, very directional, antenna, hung it high in a tree, and pointed it at the local air force base, to provide servicemen there a signal where there would otherwise be none. Other knowledgeable folks encrypted their routers in order to prevent anyone from using their signal, or out of concern for the ability to compromise one of their computers connected to their system. Whether or not they were likely to be vulnerable, they chose to limit access to their system.

Holiday Inn, Pet’s Place here in George Town, and a host of other restaurants, hotels and other businesses who leave theirs open, just because it’s more trouble than it’s worth to deal with folks having difficulty signing on to their systems which are, of course, intended to benefit their customers and/or to attract business to them based on the ability to get a signal.

So, today’s ethics largely have folks signing on to whatever signal they can find. Whether you’re comfortable doing that is up to you. And, if you’re uncomfortable, you may not have a pay site, such as Gaviota Bay, Palm Bay Beach Club or Harbour Wifi, here, available. So, without getting into an ethics discussion, let’s talk about ways to increase your ability to communicate over wifi.


And, finally, a bit of tech-talk in non-technical terms, so you understand what’s happening when you’re communicating over the internet (or any network, for that matter): Traffic is passed in packets, which have headers and footers. The header tells where it’s heading (the mac address), as well as the number of the packet, and the footer tells the computer when that packet’s ended. The header allows your computer, or the receiving site (such as an email address), when you’re sending something, to get it – but it’s all over the Internet, and packet sniffers could see those packets. That’s why when you’re ordering stuff over the internet, or doing banking or other sensitive stuff, typically it will be on an encrypted site – to protect your information from prying eyes.

The commercial systems, such as Gaviota Bay, Palm Bay Beach Club and Harbour WiFi will have powerful antennas and amplification to make their signals go further – so they can get you to sign up with them, even if you’re all the way on the other side of the harbor.

height gets you distance, as WiFi is line-of-sight.


Another such device is an Alfa. It has a rubber duck antenna and connects by USB cable. Not an exterior device, but some cruisers have found them adequate to their needs.


Having said all that, weather plays a part, too, in your success rate. Generally speaking, the drier the air is, the longer you can reach out and shout. When it’s raining, your performance will suffer. If the humidity is high, it won’t be as good as it is on a crisp day. This is just another example of “stuff” being in the way – and, weather aside, another reason why height is your friend…

Informative post, although some of it needs to be updated. There are a lot of things that depend on how you’re using the network. Someone who just needs basic networking for email connectivity or similar doesn’t need much. Things have changed rapidly in the last 5 to 10 years. Streaming video, games, and other high bandwidth items have really changed things up.

Ethically there are plenty of open and closed networks you can attach to legally. Verizon, and at&t among others have Wi-Fi spots available as part of your plan or as an addition. Starbucks and similar places also have systems that you can access, but those systems are designed for the range of people sitting inside drinking coffee. There are a lot of these types of places close to colleges, where you go and do your homework, study ect, for good chunks of the day. I moonlit nights for a few months at a museum where there were people parked outside using the Wi-Fi network, closed system but you get the Wi-Fi info inside. Hotels and the like have been switching to a captive portal system which complicates things and doesn’t make it easy to connect to your network sometimes. This goes for the marina Wi-Fi too. 10 years ago everyone went to a hotel and watched whatever was on cable or paid to watch movies. Now everyone’s shows are on their phone or computer and they just need internet.
Due to entertainment streaming and security concerns these are not necessarily the best networks to do stuff on. They have become a hotbed for hackers trying to get your information. You should use VPN’s and good personal security software on those networks. Because so many people transit through some of these transient systems there’s far more risk of viruses and the like. Banking online is a big no-no while using these networks, without VPN and a lot of strict security on your computer or device. These types of security systems are not necessarily easy to set up. Having used a paid VPN service I found that those looking to do more nefarious stuff also use them which blacklists that IP address the VPN server uses. Highly frustrating overseas. The other problem is the impact on a network and slowdown from streaming and the like. Since streaming is more and more common it only takes a few people streaming to slow down the network for everyone else. VPN’s slow things down further which can be infuriating when you need it for something essential.
Depends on the area too. Deployed to Kuwait 10 years ago the command took months getting an internet contract for everyone there, which was a big deal at the time. You could get your own contract and use a 1000mw alpha but the building you were in and the location you were in the building really changed your signal. Was not reliable enough for video chat back home for more than a few min at a time. Going back 10 years later and you paid $30 a month for an internet 4g hot puck and you had better and faster internet then you have in the US, and the signal was rarely an issue. Have stayed at hotels for training ect and have rarely seen a hotel Wi-Fi provide what’s needed bandwidth wise. Best case scenario is having a good enough signal on my phone, thankfully cellphones have progressed better as far as mobile usability than Wi-Fi, however that’s not true in all cases. That isn’t to say WIFI isn’t useful or useable, just that you have no control over the Wi-Fi signal and bandwidth coming in, more often than not they have cheap or outdated equipment. When it comes to your internal Wi-Fi you can get the latest and greatest and have light speed connectivity inside the boat.

You can do this fairly cheap using 1000mw Alphas, directional antennas and the like. Your boat can definitely block signal however. Not too hard to make a watertight plastic box and extend the antenna out a port. But now we are touching the realm of stuff that is less user friendly and more work for a connection. On the other end is cellular boosters for your 4g connection, and the more user friendly devices that are around $500 or more. For people with essential or work internet requirements and power users there are special routers that can tap 2 different data sim cards or a Wi-Fi network connection. These are on the $1000+ higher end, or are a painful do it yourself item unfortunately.

Having a Wi-Fi antenna on the top of the mast isn’t necessarily the best strategy. It does increase the line of site, but that does not necessarily mean you will have a meaningful or dependable data connection. At that height it can interfere with Wi-Fi connections closer to you. Ie a marina or dock Wi-Fi. In this scenario it’s better to have a lower antennae. I am installing a waterproof Ethernet connector in the mast just above the deck. That way you can easily run your Wi-Fi antennae on one of the halyards or flag hoists to the correct height that give the best signal. I also added a cellular antenna to the top of the mast to later connect to a big booster. That will give me a longer cellular connection underway or at anchor.

There is a mesh networking scheme that may work better at a marina or cruising anchorage but it would be difficult to troubleshoot or get everyone on the same page. Likewise there is a MIMO ham network you can reconfigure an old router for that is supposed to be longer range. But most people don’t have the patience or ability to configure such devices, and you would have to leave a station set up at your dock box which probably won’t go well with most marinas. There are shore stations for these things but since they’re paying out of pocket, and more experimental, I would say such networks are not reliable enough for essential internet.

The weather does have a big impact. More so temperature specifically. At one command we had an embedded marine corps comm’s specialist type. Planning out stuff I realized there was different radio freqs used for night and day. I picked his brain a bit and found out that temperatures can drastically affect radio, cell, Wi-Fi signals. I wished I wrote some of that down as I don’t remember if higher or lower freqs were better at night. That conversation brought the realization that my cell and Wi-Fi signal inside the boat dropped horribly not too long after the sun went down. I had assumed it was everyone being home and binge watching stuff. I suspect with receiving a Wi-Fi or cell signal from off the boat where you can’t change their equipment, which means you have to invest more on equipment and amplifiers/boosters.

I’d say the best advice now a days is try to be flexible, and think modularly. A router that can take a cell modem and a Wi-Fi booster/extender connection would let you use attach different equipment. A more user friendly marine/rv Wi-Fi booster/extender would help keeping you from pulling your hair out. Cellular is problematic right now. 4G is good and useable but I wouldn’t want to buy anything right now that isn’t 5g compatible and it’s still too early really with that technology. Keeping your data on a usb modem or hotspot that connects to your network is probably the better bet so that you can upgrade easier and cheaper. A lot of the routers and devices with one or more simcards and cell modems are only configured for 4G. Doesn’t make sense to buy something that costs $500-$1000 that is on the edge of being replaced with 5G. Adaptability!!!

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by andrzej0nl1ne

... and yes, you cannot trust the salesman nor the marketing brochures...

But if you think they're making 1/3 or 1/10 of what the engineers are making you're in a different universe. Those ratios are reversed

[Aluna]

I think this is the equipment you are looking for: https://www.ui.com/airmax/bullet-ac/
Because it is connected with a RJ45 network cable with POE, distance is not restricted and you can mount it 20m high up on your mast with an omnidirectional antenna. Ten years ago I was using an earlier version and you can connect to shore based wifi upto 4km away. The newet models should do better.

[JimJohnston]

I used Island time PC 10 years ago to acquire a system. They have probably kept up to date with new tech and can help you

https://www.islandtimepc.com/

[stem]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

Let me be more specific.

I want to buy a WIFI extender, with a router that accepts USB WAN.

I've tried several "extenders", and they use internal antenna only, and use the USB port just for a plug in thumb drive, or even just for power.

An external antenna is a must for more than 1/4 mile. an external transponder even more of a must if further.

AT&T WIFI, and Xfinity have roaming plans with plenty of public WIFI on beaches, and marinas where I boat, (Keys), that burning through cash on a satellite, or cell plan is usually not necessary. (If I can watch Youtube on a tablet in the marina lobby, I should be able to at the mooring field with a little more power).

The extender needs to be able to login at a captive portal, my smart TV cannot, also I can't control, or cast to TV from phone through a public network.

Yes I know first world problems, but after spending hundreds of boat bucks for a boat, I should be able to handle a few hundred dollars for a good internet connection to see where the latest Covid shutdowns are, and what's up on this board.

So equipment needed.

WIFI repeater with external antenna.

Compatible router for all wireless items on boat including radar, and chartplotter.

I just needed to update MFD plotter, took a day, and a half to download with frequent dropouts, using cell phone as tether on Raymarine network.

Should have been an easy task with a proper WIFI, instead of going to shore, downloading to a tablet, writing to a SD card, back to boat, upload from SD card to chartplotter.

There are compact, even battery operated Hotel WIFI extenders that handle captive portal, and VPN, but without an external antenna, it's going to be duct taped to a halyard, and hauled aloft.

On my Seawind 1160 I made a hack system with a Teletonika RUT950 typically used in transport vehicle telematics (https://teltonika-networks.com/product/rut950/) in a IP67 box powered from 12V up the mast very simple no inverters or data cabling as it has DC power and a wifi hotspot facility parts cost about $600 including antenna. Fitting the box with a with a 4WD 4G 7dBi antenna at 850MHz was a bit tricky cutting down the RG58 feed cable and terminating with SME connector but it did the job. Being 17m above the water I had internet at about 10 nm offshore sometimes much further (40 nm was the record) depending on the elevation of the cell tower. In the marina it would auto switch to wifi repeater mode. The hotspot was also connected the Raymarine MFD and bought a Google TV for Netflix The next hack will be a starlink antenna https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/8/22...boats-aircraft

[W32PAMELA]

I thought I should mention that the link in post #69 above is for a Bullet AC. These will only work with another device running Airmax which is a proprietary Ubiquiti mode. The Bullet AC should not be purchased if you intend to use it for connecting to Public Wifi systems. The Bullet M2 is still the choice if you want an omni antenna Ubiquiti device. If you mostly want internet in marinas the Ubiquiti Nanostation series works great.

I think the Mikrotik Groove can give you more bang for the buck. It does dual band, comes in an a/b/g/n version (Groove 52HPn) or an a/b/g/n/ac version (Groove 52ac). They all include the passive POE and some versions include a dual band antenna.

If any of you have a Mikrotik routers with a USB port on the side you can easily turn this into a 4G lte router by plugging in an unlocked Alcatel IK41UC(NA) USB dongle. This is the US version that will work with T-Mobile or ATT . It also comes in 3 other region versions; Latin American IK41UD1(LATAM), Asia Pacific IK41CQ1(APAC) & EU IK41VE1(EMEA). The NA version can be found on Ebay for as little as $40.

[capn_billl]

Follow up. I just bought, and configured a GLI Beryl router.

It works with captive portal, I'm using it to post this while streaming YouTube on two other devices. It only has 3 inch antenna, but is configurable to a USB or POE external WIFI repeater, or Cell Modem.

It has checkboxes for both, and the manufacturer assures me it will work with most popular devices.

I will try Bearify first, maybe Tuoshi, and report back.

The little antenna on the Beryl working good so far, it has much more power than laptop or cell phone, and runs off of USB-C I can plug into 12v cigarette lighter socket, of which I have plenty on boat.

It has built in VPN support, and a very secure local network.

Everything on boat is now connected, and talking. I can cast YouTube to TV, and exchange files, and firmware updates to MFD in under a minute.

No issues with public WIFI, and boat devices are invisible behind firewall, and independent DHCP, and DNS server.

I'll try it further out this weekend.

Thanks to everyone for advice, and information. I researched each link, and carefully considered price, and needs.

[Networker]

All the WiFi you’re getting is not “offshore,” it’s in smelling distance of land.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by Networker

All the WiFi you’re getting is not “offshore,” it’s in smelling distance of land.

Very true. But cruising the Caribbean I'm usually in smelling distance of somewhere.

And by the time I'm ready to cross an ocean hopefully satelite will be ready.