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Old 15-03-2023, 19:11   #1
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Which is the best doppler radar dome avaliable and why

Hi all,
which is the best doppler radar dome (18 or 24) avalliable right now and why? Overall best and best price/performance (best bang for the buck) doppler radar dome for a bluewatercruiser.

Forget about the chartplotter or openCPN or whereever it connects.


to me it looks like the Garmin GMR™ pantom 18 is price/performance the winner, short/long range, 48nm range and marpa, arpa for 2200 bucks is hard to beat in the best bang for buck range.But one part is technical spec on paper, the other is real life performance eg rain....
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Old 15-03-2023, 19:41   #2
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Re: Which is the best doppler radar dome avaliable and why

Panbo did a two part review here recently of Garmin, Simrad, and Raymarine radars.

https://panbo.com/enclosed-radars-co...ne-and-simrad/
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Old 15-03-2023, 21:08   #3
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Re: Which is the best doppler radar dome avaliable and why

The only thing you will see on a radar at 48nm is weather and mountains.
Only large (85' tall) ships will be visible on radar at 16nm assuming the dome height is 15'.
If you can mount the dome at 30' you will be able to see a 57' tall target at 16nm
With 30' dome you can see 200' tall target at 24nm.
15' dome can see 245' target at 24nm.

15' dome can see 1250' target at 48nm.
30' dome can see 1150' target at 48nm

The flip side is that the higher your dome, the further out your minimum range is. The minimum range for the electronics in the radar are probably a couple hundred feet. But that minimum range the radar can physically see because of beam width will be increased by raising the dome above about 20 or so. There is a good discussion of this in "Modern Cruising Under Sail" by Don Dodds.


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Old 16-03-2023, 03:48   #4
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Re: Which is the best doppler radar dome avaliable and why

Thanks to both of you, great start of the topic.
Yes 48nm away weather is what i am looking for on a bluewatercruiser. Seeing bad weather and squals early as possible is key. Thats what i use radar the most.
Is that also affected how far away i see weather regarding mounting height of the radar?
Ships are not of interest above 15nm, around 2-3h away for our cruisers. My area of interest start here at 10nm, min an hour away, which every doppler radar can do.
My opinion in the two parameters.

I see 3 main use cases for bluewatercruisers:
Weather: range as far away as possible
Collision avoidance on passage: 10nm is there a ship out there that could collide with me and i could easly avoid eg by changing course 3 degrees. Sure i wanna see as small vessels or obsticals as possible, the ones they don't have AIS.
Collision avoidance dur
ing reduced visibility (fog/heavy rain...): here as near as possible and as small as possible obstacles are detected. Also is performance compromised through eg heavy rain, which model is the least effected?

Thats exactly two parameters of several. Which parameters are important for us bluewater cruisers, whats the range they should be in and which model is fullfilling all that at best.
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Old 16-03-2023, 04:16   #5
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Re: Which is the best doppler radar dome avaliable and why

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainRivet View Post
. . .
I see 3 main use cases for bluewatercruisers:
Weather: range as far away as possible
Collision avoidance on passage: 10nm is there a ship out there that could collide with me and i could easly avoid eg by changing course 3 degrees. Sure i wanna see as small vessels or obsticals as possible
Collision avoidance dueing resuced visibility (fog/heavy rain...): here as near as possible and as small as possible obstacles are detected. Also is performance compromises through eg heavy rain. . .
On cruising boats, unlike on ships (which have much better radars than ours), AIS is the primary method of collision avoidance, with radar as a (crucial) backup for vessels not transmitting AIS.

There are two very valuable use cases for radar you didn't mention:

1. Pilotage, especially in bad viz. There is nothing on earth you will value more than your radar when trying to enter a strange harbor at night in the rain. Also position fixing in case you GPS is not working, or to verify what your GPS tells you. Also verifying charts. It's good seamanship to verify continuously with radar what you see on the chart plotter, which is super easy with radar overlay. There are many classical radar techniques like parallel indexing which are little practiced these days on recreational vessels, but which are very valuable, and can help you be less dependent on the chart plotter, which is good seamanship.

2. Watchkeeping enhancement -- using guard zones to sound alarm offshore if an object appears within a certain distance. Very valuable if you don't have crew on watch scanning the horizon every second when far offshore, or even if you do, because they don't always see everything, especially in the dark or poor viz.

I also use radar at anchor to keep track of distances to other boats and to hazards, sometimes using guard zones as an additional type of anchor alarm. And for measuring distances to other boats when choosing an anchoring spot -- extremely useful since the eyeballs are really deceptive in this.


In my opinion radar is the most valuable electronic device on board, far more valuable and versatile than the chart plotter.

I'm using a by now pretty old B&G 4G radar so can't comment on the new ones. All the electronic trickery which has made small radars better in recent years does not solve the big disadvantage of small radars, which is bearing discrimination. It's often said that radar is very accurate for range, but not so much for bearing, and that is much more true, the smaller the radar antenna. So, the bigger the antenna (or dome), the better quality your bearings will be, which is very valuable.

A couple of other points about radar, and its desirable qualities:

1. You care very little about long ranges but very much about the ability of the radar at short and very short ranges. As has been said in this thread, you're not going to see much at ranges more than 10 miles anyway due to radar horizon. Also, you're not going to be doing much collision avoidance beyond 10 miles anyway. The first recreational CW radar was the Simrad BRM (later developed into 3G and 4G), which was considered to suck at long ranges but to be brilliant at very short ranges, and in practice this was very little or no disadvantage at all. The very short range performance is extremely valuable; a great leap forward over older pulse radars. But the poor bearing discrimination from the very small scanner (18") creates disadvantages, and these radars have an extremely poor MARPA implementation. So always go for the biggest scanner you can fit. The new Simrad doppler radars are available with a 24" scanner.

2. Furuno are considered to have the best MARPA (actually ARPA) implementation. Whether this is really valuable or not depends on how you work. I've adapted to years of having radars with bad MARPA implementation by not using it, and just doing old fashioned manual radar plots, which I actually prefer. Or just put the EBL on the target and just eyeball whether it's walking down the EBL or not -- extremely quick, dirty, and useful analogue way to detect a collision course.

3. Doppler is surely good for seeing at a glance whether a target is moving, and whether it is moving towards or away from you. I spent some thousands of miles skippering a boat with one of the new HALO radars and liked that.

4. Radar overlay on the plotter is extremely useful. But to make this work right, you need to have very precisely aligned scanner and you need very good heading data on your network (this will also improve MARPA/ARPA performance). It's worth investing in a satellite compass to get this (which will also improve your autopilot performance).

For my use case and way of working, the best radar would be a larger open array one. That won't fit on my boat. But I do think about upgrading my 18" 4G scanner to a 24" HALO one, at least. Some day, because it means I would also have to upgrade the two B&G plotters.
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Old 16-03-2023, 05:13   #6
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Re: Which is the best doppler radar dome avaliable and why

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainRivet View Post
Hi all,
which is the best doppler radar dome (18 or 24) avalliable right now and why? Overall best and best price/performance (best bang for the buck) doppler radar dome for a bluewatercruiser.

Forget about the chartplotter or openCPN or whereever it connects.


to me it looks like the Garmin GMR™ pantom 18 is price/performance the winner, short/long range, 48nm range and marpa, arpa for 2200 bucks is hard to beat in the best bang for buck range.But one part is technical spec on paper, the other is real life performance eg rain....



furuno. solid state

its the only radar brand i've used (err.. know how to use)
...integrates well with Time Zero on laptop...
"guard zone" works (for me) i dont know other brands.. but i have seen posts complaining that "guard zones" dont work or have too many false positives, blah blah
i consider it essential and it works for me (and is highly likely i'll stick to same company if/when is time to replace or upgrade)
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Old 16-03-2023, 05:38   #7
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Re: Which is the best doppler radar dome avaliable and why

Generally Furuno has the reputation of being the best in the radar department. But the others have good offerings as well.



As far as size, bigger is better. A bigger dome (or even bigger open array) will have a smaller horizontal beam width, so it'll be able to identify close together targets better (rather than them appearing as 1 object). To some extent, as long as you can mount the bigger and better units, radar is one of those cases where spending more money pretty much always gets you better equipment. That said, depending on how you use the boat and what you want radar for, there's certainly a point where it's "good enough".
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Old 16-03-2023, 07:11   #8
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Re: Which is the best doppler radar dome avaliable and why

Comparison performance review of the Halo vs the Fantom, worth a look. https://www.shotgunmarine.com.au/blo...garmin-fantom/
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Old 16-03-2023, 07:42   #9
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Re: Which is the best doppler radar dome avaliable and why

older...but still a pretty good review of a Furuno solid-state (doppler) radar..




https://panbo.com/testing-furuno-drs...st-definitely/
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