Urgent: at sea, need B&G autopilot troubleshooting

[Clint09]

Hi Ohthetrees
Up until last year I owned Hanse 505-067 and we had
Similar problems to yours. We found out after selling the boat that the H5000 Hydra CPU was never fitted the pilot was left to rely on the chart plotter as I was told. The pilot computer in the aft starboard locker drives the actuator & processes the feedback but for a complete system you need the Hydra fitted. Most modes were never available like Wind. Downwind the pilot was useless & could never cope. There was a run of boats produced by Hanse where the Hydra units were left out. The DD1 ram is not a good unit & prone to shearing teeth off a pinion gear. This is most under load going down wind.
Other things to know are the pilot actuator is prone to shearing teeth or bits of the pinion gear teeth on the reduction gear which causes the steering to jam. There’s other cruisers blogs and Myhanse blogs that cover this. The actuator can be dismantled and debris cleared if the damage isn’t bad.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Just a brief comment, here. The wind pilot will see him safe to Hawaii. Jim and I have sailed roughly 85,000 miles with a home made wind vane steering.

Wind Pilot is a B&G autopilot steering mode. It's not a wind vane. It takes apparent and true wind direction data and sails the boat to a specified angle to the wind. It can be very effective in calmer conditions but when the wind is fluky or the seas confused it is not highly effective.

To the OP, call B&G tech support. They are, in my experience, very competent and happy to help you with the diagnosis of problems in older hardware out of warranty, if you were concerned about that.

I agree that it sounds like an electrical issue or simnet issue. I would check the fuses, AND the breaker, and. then all connections for power and networking before I performed a reset.

[Clint09]

We blew the pilot computer fuse on a passage from Greece to Malta and stopped in Syracuse to rest and repair it. It was a blown fuse on the DC board. You could pull fuses until you found it. A flashing red LED indicated a blown fuse. You need a simple tester to find the fuse on the back of the DC board. You also need to turn off the DC before removing the fuse because it’s in a difficult place on the board. The ID on the wires can lead you to it. Then you’ll have to re install the H5000. It’s not difficult. You may find a quick installation guide on board. Put in the boat dimension info. Set the auto pilot travel limits etc. dockside trial then sea trial.

[Time2Go]

Had very similar problems with the same set up on
a Hanse 505 I was on.
Are you on “ SV Hanse Sailor”
Problem was found to be a Time Out Software issue which
would happen intermittently without warning.
Error message was something like
“Course computer not found”
“Lost communication with course computer”
Sorry don’t remember
B&G knows about this issue and had released a patch
BUT NEVER TOLD ANYBODY NOR CONTACTED PURCHASERS
If you search this forum about 5 years ago it will pop up
Cheers
Neil

[kipwrite]

Originally Posted by ohthetrees

No problem since you moved to the outer hole? I really would like a robust auto pilot that I feel good about using in difficult conditions. May have to see if I can find a hydraulic unit that will fit in that space.

If you look at the original build card by jefa, the whole DD1 unit is installed at an angle, rather than on centerline as done by Hanse. Did you also revise the position of the DD1, or only move from the inner to the outer hole?

On my boat #505-123 the Jeffa has worked flawlessly since it was repaired and the ram mounted in the correct outer hole on the quadrant. Jeffa looked at photos of the install and had no issue with the slight offset angle of the DDI.

That said, having had one failure in heavy following seas, I’m a bit wary of it under similar conditions.

Neither my dealer nor I could find a hydraulic unit that fits in that allotted space, hence, the choice of the Hydrovane, which works well provided things are balanced. I like that it can also serve as a back up rudder.

Congratulations on your new to you 505. These are lovely boats.

[k.weeteling]

we use Simrad. Autopilotdrive is a DD15. Fully i tegrated. Every now and then our autopilot has similar problem/symptons.
Because, the 15A fuse of the drive has blown. This fuse is placed near, but outside the drive.

[Neptune's Gear]

Ok, I'm a B&G tech. I suggest you call the help line. However:
The H5000 series is a great system, as used in The vendee globe boats. It can steer in virtually any conditions when properly matched to a suitable drive and correctly installed and set up.
So. Regardless of whether or not this is simnet or micro C nmea 2000, there is a bus supply connection, with a 3 amp fuse.
If the error message on the Zeus and all other instruments is "no autopilot computer" then that is exactly what it means. There is no logical connection to the ap computer (h5000 ap computer) . This may be supply from the panel (switch, breaker, fuse) or the internal 30a blade fuse in the black ap box. Check both with a multimeter. The Zeus 3 units can be used to check the AP connection, look in network, then device list. If it's not in the list it's not connected, or its faulty, or the drop lead or bus is faulty. If it's the bus or drop lead, there should be errors listed on the network diagnostics page.
The DD1 is not ideal for this boat, it's not really robust enough in my opinion. A custom hydraulic unit with a RPU300 pump would be better.
The most likely issue is a fuse, or poor power supply to the ap computer.

[GordMay]

Greetings and belated welcome aboard the CF, Clint.


Wonderful thread. All you contributors are great.

[ohthetrees]

Originally Posted by Clint09

Hi Ohthetrees
We found out after selling the boat that the H5000 Hydra CPU was never fitted the pilot was left to rely on the chart plotter as I was told. The pilot computer in the aft starboard locker drives the actuator & processes the feedback but for a complete system you need the Hydra fitted. Most modes were never available like Wind. Downwind the pilot was useless & could never cope. There was a run of boats produced by Hanse where the Hydra units were left out. The DD1 ram is not a good unit & prone to shearing teeth off a pinion gear. This is most under load going down wind.

Thanks Clint, really appreciate you chiming in. I have hull #115, so hopefully they worked out most of the issues by then. I've laid eyes on the hydra behind the nav station, and the seller demonstrated steering by wind angle, so I think I have the hydra and it is working.

Originally Posted by Suijin

Wind Pilot is a B&G autopilot steering mode. It's not a wind vane. It takes apparent and true wind direction data and sails the boat to a specified angle to the wind. It can be very effective in calmer conditions but when the wind is fluky or the seas confused it is not highly effective.

The Windpilot I'm talking about is a wind-powered self-steering device. Here is a link. https://www.windpilot.com/n/wind/en/prod/paci/ I have the "pacific" model. It seems very well made, and I like how easy it is to mount and dismount from the stern, which is crucial for a fold down transom.

Originally Posted by Clint09

We blew the pilot computer fuse on a passage from Greece to Malta and stopped in Syracuse to rest and repair it. It was a blown fuse on the DC board. You could pull fuses until you found it. A flashing red LED indicated a blown fuse. You need a simple tester to find the fuse on the back of the DC board. You also need to turn off the DC before removing the fuse because it’s in a difficult place on the board. The ID on the wires can lead you to it. Then you’ll have to re install the H5000. It’s not difficult. You may find a quick installation guide on board. Put in the boat dimension info. Set the auto pilot travel limits etc. dockside trial then sea trial.

From my poor reading of the hanse circuit diagram of the boat, I *think* there is a 15 amp fuse on the AP circuit. I couldn't find the max draw of the DD1 unit, but I found a chart that implies it can use 13 amps maximum. While the H5000 pilot cpu itself can handle 30 amps, it is only being supplied by a circuit that can handle 15 amps. So my working theory is that the draw of the DD1, plus the H500 pilot cpu itself exceed the 15 amps of the fuse. Basically, I think the fuse installed by Hanse is undersized for the DD1 plus H5000 AP computer. When the boat is in my hands, I'll see whether the DC board, and existing wiring is sufficient to upsize the fuse to a 20 amp fuse. If not, I'll have to do something like run new wires and use a relay. I'll figure it out later. For now, I think the skipper just has to be aware that in fresh conditions, the electric AP can be overwhelmed.

Originally Posted by kipwrite

On my boat #505-123 the Jeffa has worked flawlessly since it was repaired and the ram mounted in the correct outer hole on the quadrant. Jeffa looked at photos of the install and had no issue with the slight offset angle of the DDI.

That said, having had one failure in heavy following seas, I’m a bit wary of it under similar conditions.

Neither my dealer nor I could find a hydraulic unit that fits in that allotted space, hence, the choice of the Hydrovane, which works well provided things are balanced. I like that it can also serve as a back up rudder.

Congratulations on your new to you 505. These are lovely boats.

Thanks! I'll be excited when the boat is finally in my hands! Glad to hear AP has working fine once you moved to the outer hole. Have been scouring the internet, have found many reports of AP failure on inner hole, so far found zero reports of failure on outer hole. All that said, I'm very interested in an upgrade to a hydraulic unit. You say you weren't able to find one the right size. Did you look at the PYI units? Found a thread where one suggested that unit would fit. If I'm converting between "thrust" used by PYI and the kg/m used by Jefa, I think the equiv cylinder is the PYI VHM 50 ST 20 Newave 12 V. Haven't found boat drawings yet to allow me to see if would fit.

Originally Posted by k.weeteling

we use Simrad. Autopilotdrive is a DD15. Fully i tegrated. Every now and then our autopilot has similar problem/symptons.
Because, the 15A fuse of the drive has blown. This fuse is placed near, but outside the drive.

As I said above, I'm beginning to suspect that 15 amps is insufficient for the DD1 plus H5000 AP cpu.

Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear

Ok, I'm a B&G tech. I suggest you call the help line. The DD1 is not ideal for this boat, it's not really robust enough in my opinion. A custom hydraulic unit with a RPU300 pump would be better.
The most likely issue is a fuse, or poor power supply to the ap computer.

Thanks for your input, much appreciated. Interesting idea to just order a custom ram if I can't find an off-the-shelf that fits. I shudder to think of the cost!

Originally Posted by GordMay

Greetings and belated welcome aboard the CF, Clint.
Wonderful thread. All you contributors are great.

Completely agree. Overwhelmed with all the great support. Weather is still a bit fresh where they are, but should calm later today. When they troubleshoot this issue later today or tomorrow, I have a strong suspicion that it is going to be a fuse to the H5000 AP. Thanks everyone for all the help, and I'll be sure to update when I have an answer.

[Cowpoos]

Originally Posted by ohthetrees

Thanks for your input, much appreciated. Interesting idea to just order a custom ram if I can't find an off-the-shelf that fits. I shudder to think of the cost!

Probably cheaper than an off the shelf marine branded ram.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by ohthetrees

Skipper reports fresh conditions

Yea, no doubt, tropical cyclone Sarai formed right behind them. I hope they were far enough in front to not have too much difficulty escaping it.

[ohthetrees]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Yea, no doubt, tropical cyclone Sarai formed right behind them. I hope they were far enough in front to not have too much difficulty escaping it.

That was cause of all the squalls and big rain, but nothing too bad. The good news is it has given them a N wind for a few days, allowing them to make easting more easily than normal without having to beat.

[Breaking Waves]

^ thats good news

On your main topic. I’ve had B&G autopilots, and as reported above their phone tech supports has been quite decent. Ive had autopilot go out twice at sea, called them on sat phone and they walked me thru diagnosis and fix. With First one had to replace failed fluxgate, and second time was Intermittent network wire connection to autopilot box - took all wires out, cleaned up ends and connected them back up.

[ohthetrees]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

^ thats good news

On your main topic. I’ve had B&G autopilots, and as reported above their phone tech supports has been quite decent. Ive had autopilot go out twice at sea, called them on sat phone and they walked me thru diagnosis and fix. With First one had to replace failed fluxgate, and second time was Intermittent network wire connection to autopilot box - took all wires out, cleaned up ends and connected them back up.

If the fuse suspicion doesn't bear out, I'll give them a ring.

[ohthetrees]

Many thanks all! He found the bad fuse on back of the DC board, and they are back in business. I really appreciate all your help.

I think the fuse on the AP circuit is 15amp. I couldn't find the max draw of the DD1 unit, but I found a chart that implies it can use 13 amps maximum. Plus the ~1 amp continuous to keep clutch engaged. While the H5000 pilot cpu itself can handle 30a, (50a peak for 1 sec), it is only being supplied by this circuit that is fused at 15 amps. So my working theory is that the draw of the DD1, plus the H500 pilot cpu itself can exceed the 15 amps of the fuse, even without malfunction of H5000 or DD1 in heavy weather. Basically, I think the fuse installed by Hanse is undersized for the DD1 plus H5000 AP computer.

What do you all think of the idea of replacing with a 20a fuse? Foolhardy? Brilliant? Obviously the H5000 can handle it, so I guess it is a question of whether the wurth board and the wiring could handle 20amp. I feel strongly 15 amp is undersized for the H5000 plus DD1, but don't know installed wire guages, run lengths or the capability of the wurth. Does anyone with 1st hand knowledge of the 505 wiring and wurth care to chime in?

Thanks again guys!!